<p>Most of those who skewered the Duke lax players out of the gate bought into the white privilege, class, race, gender tripe. </p>
<p>What disturbs me is that those folks tend to be the same ones to argue that our rights are being abridged by some governmental entity somewhere - whether it be the Patriot Act, George Bush in anything that he does that evokes some sort of perceived executive privilege, the government looking at personal financial records or whatever…</p>
<p>These young men received the worst of the worst of an overreaching government and the usual suspects are looking the other way.</p>
OMG, have YOU hit the naiil on the head!!! Wow. Just, WOW.</p>
<p>I guess these people weren’t poor or disadvantaged enough to warrant the sympathy/empathy given to so many others by that crowd. </p>
<p>What <em>I’ve</em> seen from some of these folks is a “See, the justice system DID work!!” sentiment, and we’re all supposed to stand up and applaud?? </p>
<p>Also, GREAT post in #618. Guess some people have just gotta BE there. Perspective is easy when you’re lookin’ from the outside IN.</p>
THis is an excellent point. The oft repeated refrain, “I don’t want George Bush reading MY e-mails” becomes even more tiresome when it comes from those who casually shrug off the year of hell the lax families endured by saying, “See, the justice system DID work!” Like berurah, I’m not applauding. The fact that this case proceeded for more than a week or two is outrageous.</p>
Well, kluge, you’d better damn well believe that people who had as much exculpatory evidence as these “suspects” did for the ENTIRE time of the investigation wanted “justice” quickly (even though it was WAAAAAAY too late for that…they were, after all, FALSELY ACCUSED BY AN EXTREMELY UNBALANCED WOMAN). They put in PLENTY of (wasteful) effort and millions of dollars trying to get their stories heard. That you would, at this juncture, make the above statement is quite telling, IMHO. These boys/families had no business in this position to begin with, and if the key players had done their jobs -and had not operated under the assumption that “rich, white boys” had it coming anyway, this case would never have been.</p>
<p>I think that perhaps the greatest irony in your post from which I quoted the above statement is simply this: That statement reflects the SAME, EXACT, IDENTICAL sentiment that Nifong was operating under–that if you’re “downtrodden,” (even if it’s the result of YOUR OWN DOING), you somehow deserve more. And that the more advantaged should “pay” for their statuses, even if those statuses were achieved by the same hard work that most anyone else is capable of putting in, should they make that choice. </p>
<p>That these boys’ families HAD the means to break the bank on this case is COMPLETELY irrelevant, kluge. The case should never have been brought based on the (lack of) evidence, and THAT is what we should be addressing, not the general ills of a society that are in large part perpetuated by the very same poeple who lament them. :(</p>
<p>Are you really saying that you do not believe damages can be established here?</p>
<p>I’ve seen the issue of Nifong’s potential immunity raised as an obstacle to a lawsuit. I’ve also seen it suggested that the time and effort required would prevent the kids from just getting on with their lives and as such might not be worth it to them. No where have I seen it suggested that establishing damages would be an issue if they were to pursue legal recourse.</p>
<p>No, OdysseyTiger, I’m not. In fact, as I posted (somewhere) I expect that these three families will be fully compensated for their financial losses, although not necessarily through a tort suit. Nor am I expressing the opinions interpreted into my comments by the other posters above. What I’m saying is that the system did work, and will continue to work for those with the assets and abilities to ensure that functioning. However, what I’m also pointing out to those who choose to believe that affluent white guys are victimized in America (As Joev did) is that a lot of the time the system doesn’t work at all for poor people. Because the system doesn’t always work well by itself and with no effort or expense on the part of those caught up in it. That’s not a justification for the misconduct of Nifong, or the jumping to conclusions of anyone else. It is a comment on the lack of perspective demonstrated by those who seem to feel that this case is a particularly egregious example of the system’s shortcomings. It’s not. It’s an example, but it’s not “the worst of the worst” - it’s not even close. </p>
<p>No, Berurah, you’re not supposed to stand up and applaud. You’re supposed to breathe a sigh of relief and acknowledge that for many people - for the most part, people who don’t look like you and me - it could have been, and is, every day - much worse. I’m not saying the downtrodden deserve more - I’m saying that the downtrodden deserve the same as the rest of us but in fact routinely get less - ask James Giles. (And by the way, your “interpretation” of what I meant by what I said has absolutely nothing to do with my actual opinions. How and why you chose to insert that mess into your analysis of my post is beyond me.)</p>
<p>Look, folks - you’re talking about a case where the three wrongly accused defendants never spent a single day in jail as if it were the worst miscarriage of justice since the Salem witch trials. None of you have made one word of response to the links posted by me and others regarding hundreds of innocent people known to have been incarcerated for years - decades in some cases - before being exonerated. Yet Voxdei calls this case “the worst of the worst” and accuses “the usual suspects” of "looking the other way. Have you absolutely no sense of perspective? Who are “the usual suspects” who looked the other way when James Giles was rotting in prison for a crime he didn’t commit, convicted despite documented alibi evidence just like Reade Seligmann’s? My guess is that if you look in the mirror you’ll find one of those “suspects.”</p>
Sorry, kluge, but “that mess” represents the gist of hundreds of posts you’ve made on MANY CC threads, and IMHO, is a pretty accurate reflection of your feelings about the LAX case. I do understand, though, how you would not want to be called on that and why you would refer to my logical interpretation as “that mess.” ;)</p>
<p>What is MORE frightening than the sense of outrage that many of us feel about this is the sense of outrage that you and some others DON’T feel. This case represents ANYTHING BUT “the justice system at work.” In fact, it represents the nightmare of a “justice system” at the hands of an evil man who wielded more power than he should have. </p>
<p>You have to understand your audience, kluge. We on this forum represent parents of college students, most of whom conduct themselves in personally resposible ways. It’s NO WONDER that we are at once terrified and outraged at the events that befell these COLLEGE STUDENTS that COULD HAVE BEEN your kid…or mine…in a moment of poor judgment. </p>
<p>No one can live constantly under the glow cast by the beam of someone else’s “wake up call.” Sorry, but it just doesn’t work that way. You want the LAX players–and US–to feel overjoyed that what happened to them wasn’t worse than what happened to someone else. Though many of us, myself included, can appreciate that fact, it does not diminish in the LEAST our feelings about what happened to the LAX players or render our outrage wrongful. By your argument, those wrongfully imprisoned for years should not complain because they weren’t executed, and society should expect them to make a full and complete emotional recovery, right? </p>
<p>The vehemence of your feelings doesn’t make them any more valid…or correct…than any one else’s.</p>
<p>Kluge, I don’t think this case was the WORST miscarriage of justice. I agree that there are many like it and some that are worse (particularly those involving incarceration for crimes not committed). Even though there are others and some worse, this case surely IS a miscarriage of justice and I think the suffering of the defendants and their families is FAR more than a “blip” in their lives. You are right that justice WAS served here ULTIMATELY (and is not all the time in other cases) …though up until now it was handled unjustly… but it very well could have turned out that these young men went to jail for 30 years. It was on course for that for quite some time. Luckily they had excellent and expensive defense counsel and an eventual “break” in the case. They surely were up against someone trying to carry out an unjust prosecution. The fact that they have not gone to jail is a victory but that does not erase their suffering for a year, nor the mark on their names which is very very public given the media attention to their case. They will survive but they are forever affected. </p>
<p>I don’t think that just because there are worse cases of injustice or those unfairly incarcerated, undermines the suffering these guys or their families have faced. Luckily, they have been exonerated; it’s true. Things were on course for a long while where they may not have been. Just like the boys have said in their public statements, they are concerned for others wrongly accused who have not had the means for such a defense. </p>
<p>Yes, there are worse cases. But this case in and of itself is indeed an egregious example of the system’s shortcomings and I, for one, hope that some changes come about to avoid such a miscarriage in the future from going this far. One step at a time. One change at a time. It need not be the MOST egregious incident to acknowledge the suffering and fallout it caused, or to effect change in the system for EVERYONE wrongly accused.</p>
<p>PS, I don’t think that the injustice here was simply that innocent people were accused of a crime, as that happens all the time and the system tries to determine if the accused is guilty or not. But in THIS case, the handling of the case was done so repetitively in an unjust manner, as I believe the AG also has stated.</p>
<p>…‘‘PS, I don’t think that the injustice here was simply that innocent people were accused of a crime, as that happens all the time and the system tries to determine if the accused is guilty or not. But in THIS case, the handling of the case was done so repetitively in an unjust manner, as I believe the AG also has stated.’’…</p>
<p>I would have to add to this that this case was worked thru in a completely public eye - thanks to the media …<a bit=“” of=“” sarcasm=“” there=“”> Much of the public outcry was due to the instant gratification of the media - with alot of resulting fallout. Many cases such as this - or worse - hit the newswire for about 24-48 hours - this case hit the airways just about 24/7 for weeks and months - we as observers became a much bigger part in this case.</a></p><a bit=“” of=“” sarcasm=“” there=“”>
<p>Yes - it was a terrible injustice - horrid handling, etc… but - in the long run - the legal system did work - much personal pain and financial striff has occured - which I do think will be corrected to some degree tho not 100%.</p>
</a>
<p>Berurah, flat out: you’re wrong. Maybe you’ve forgotten that you’ve PM’d me in the past thanking me for my posts defending the Duke students in the (now deleted) thread, when I pointed out the flaws in the thinking of the people who expressed the kind of opinions you’re now ascribing to me? Have you confused me with someone else?</p>
<p>I work in the legal system, as a trial and appellate lawyer. So I see what goes on every day, in both civil and criminal cases. The Duke students look like my sons, their families, like my family, their neighborhoods, like my neighborhood. So this case caught my attention, and I felt a personal interest, even if only vicariously. But when I see the selective outrage of the type written in this thread, about how this case is “the worst of the worst”, that perceived anti-white “attitudes have to change” I can only shake my head. I’m happy for the Duke students and their families - they could be me. But the idea that they were somehow the victims of a systematic bias against affluent and/or white people is just plain wrong. There will always be flaws in any human system. There will always be Nifongs, and Crystals, and corrupt and/or lazy police, DA’s, etc. This case has illustrated what happens when those flawed people work their mischief, except for the fact that the victims actually were able to defend themselves. Usually that’s not the case. </p>
<p>The selective outrage at the fact that they had to defend themselves, while ignoring the fact that many can’t even do that, is what I’m pointing out. Yes, what happened to them was bad, but not as bad as what happens to poor non-white people all the time. Claiming victimhood for affluent white folks because the Duke defendants had to spend money to achieve justice while non-affluent, non-white people get no justice and go to prison under the same circumstances is the hypocrisy I’m pointing out.</p>
<p>JeepMom, I agree with you and touched lightly in my post as well that one thing with this case was the widespread media attention on an international scale and thus the fallout and affect on these particular young men is more than in SOME cases. </p>
<p>Kluge, just to be clear, speaking only for MYSELF, I am not one to think there is bias against young white men. I also do not think this is the WORST case of all. And yes, worse has happened to many non white people without the means for a good defense too. </p>
<p>However, and I haven’t honestly taken the time to go back to find the post, I thought you may have said, this wasn’t so bad or that it was just a blip for these young men in their lives. I do disagree with that. Even if not the worst case, and even if there is no bias against affluent white males, there was a miscarriage of justice in the handling of their case and of it ever proceeding this far…not because so much that they were wrongly accused, as many are, but because of how unjustly the case was being prosecuted. Certainly these lives were affected and the fact of the widespread attention and basically lies about these young men, has had a profound effect on their lives. Hopefully, because of the notoriety of THIS case, it can help correct some of these injustices from taking place in the future for ALL defendants, not just affluent white males. To think that this case was unjust in so many ways, even though it ended justly, doesn’t mean it is the MOST unjust case or worse than the non-affluent, non-white people who have been incarcerated and are innocent. I, for one, am not comparing. I think this case was unjust for a long while in and of itself, no matter if it is not the worst case and also I don’t believe young white males have it worse! They don’t. This case did have its biases, however.</p>
<p>As someone said earlier, injustice is injustice. This is not a matter of degree. You haven’t responded to the people who have asked you how you would feel if this happened to you. Would you really consider it a hiccup in your life, that would have no effect on your future? I don’t believe that the fact that the Duke kids never spent a night in jail or prison minimizes the devastating effect this will have on their lives. Do you believe, for example, that the roommate of one of the Va Tech students will be less traumatized than a student who was in the Engineering bldg and heard the shooting? People handle trauma differently. Surely given all that has happened this week you can be sensitive to the effects of trauma, The Duke students have endured trauma, and it will have long lasting effects on them. </p>
<p>Epistrophy, for me…I am not aiming my remarks AT any posters but giving opinions of the case itself. </p>
<p>As far as sounding like a lawyer, I recall growing up thinking of it being interesting to go into law but I never did. I wanted to go into education from a young age and kept with that plan. I always have felt law to be interesting though! I do have a brother who is an attorney and who is the head his state’s Judicial Council. He has also served as a judge. Maybe it runs in the family.</p>
So, c’mon, epistrophy, ya gonna give us a hint?? Which is it in our cases?? BTW, I did take the LSAT way back when in preparation for applying, but subsequently changed my mind. My “legal training” came from raising a couple of “born lawyers.” And OMG, are THEY GOOD! :eek:</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>Thanks for the correction…apparently, they all look alike to me <em>rofl</em>
Apologies to both kluge and epistrophy for the misattribution. :o</p>
<p>This is an interesting tidbit - a former lax player of Duke is requesting an investigation of Nifong… no details as of yet but will be interesting to see where this goes.</p>
<p>Soozievt & berurah (who misattributed my comment to kluge): I hope you didn’t miss this, but, if anything, I was meaning to be complimentary (albeit a bit playfully) when I said that you were starting to sound more like lawyers.</p>
<p>More seriously, I think that - at the risk of overgeneralizing grossly - some of the current debate about the meaning of this case may relate to differences in the way that lawyers and nonlawyers tend to think about cases. For a nonlawyer, there’s an understandable tendency to see this case simply as a terrible miscarriage of justice - and that’s certainly an understandable and valid view. Lawyers, though, are trained to - and, as a result, almost reflexively - see things not only in terms of their particulars, but also in terms of how they fit into the bigger scheme of things (somewhat like doctors in that regard). So what you have here, as much as anything else, may be simply a clash of perspectives. Someone looking only at this case thinks “how awful!” and finds kluge’s attempts to compare this injustice with others off-putting. On the other hand, those who are interested only in exclaiming “how awful!” in response to this case - without considering it in a broader context of injustice - may seem a bit myopic to others.</p>
No, I don’t believe I am, kluge, though I understand why you wish to believe so. Let me just put it THIS way to clarify: IF what happened to the LAX players happened to poor, minority kids, your sense of outrage would be TOTALLY different (MUCH, MUCH greater), even though <em>I</em> think that the result would have been the same, as egregious as the flaws in THIS PARTICULAR case were. So, I am saying to you…<em>I</em> would feel the same sense of outrage in BOTH cases, but I don’t think YOU would.</p>
<p>I have not forgotten my pm’ing you…not at all. But back then, you were operating in a strictly logical, rational fashion, something which you are NOT doing now. Now, you are infusing emotion about issues that YOU hold near and dear to your heart (apparently) to try and justify the notion that our “outrage” is somehow misplaced or inappropriate. I can fully agree with you on one issue, but disagree on another, and that is what I did.</p>
<p>Just curious, as a defense atty, you do how much pro bono work to help those who have suffered injustice at the hands of a system that favors the rich?</p>
</p>
BTW, I did take the LSAT way back when in preparation for applying, but subsequently changed my mind. My “legal training” came from raising a couple of “born lawyers.” And OMG, are THEY GOOD! :eek:</p>