<p>Epistrophy
You don’t have to be an attorney to make a cogent argument.</p>
<p>^^or to have a “larger view” or perspective.</p>
<p>Of course (!!!) you don’t have to be a lawyer to make a cogent argument or to view things in a broader perspective. </p>
<p>I was simply trying to shed some light on how I thought this thread might have gotten bogged down into a disagreement that seems to me to have relatively little to do with substance and much more to do with perspective. (Oh, well, back to work.)</p>
<p>I’m jealous. I wanna be accused of starting to sound more like a lawyer. :(</p>
<p>"But the idea that they were somehow the victims of a systematic bias against affluent and/or white people is just plain wrong. "</p>
<p>I disagree. In this particular case, these students were discriminated against because they were white and presumably rich. They were victims of a sytemic bias against white (affluence) shown by the media, the community, the DA, and many black leaders and organizations.</p>
<p>This thread has been focused on the Duke case for over a year. This is a college chat room. Some of us were not familiar with the other cases you linked. The fact that there are other cases of injustice does nothing to diminish the injustice that we know happened to these students, no matter how many times someone tries to tell us we are wrong. </p>
<p>The fact that someone tells us how we should think is just plain wrong. We don’t have to be lawyers to get it.</p>
<p>I think one can comment on this case and it need not be a comparison to other cases in order for the comments to be valid. </p>
<p>Of course there are greater miscarriages of justice and of course the non white low income males are heavily represented as victims of that miscarriage. In fact, the Duke LAX players spoke about their recognition that such cases have resulted in incarceration and that those defendants have not had the good fortune to be represented by such excellent and expensive counsel as they have been. In fact, this case brings up that if it could happen to these guys, just think of all the others who have been unjustly prosecuted in this manner. Hopefully this case has brought to attention what can potentially happen in such cases when there are no checks and balances on a DA like this one or with the grand jury stuff, etc. Even the AG spoke about changes that are needed to avoid this in the future. Because this case has so much media and government attention, perhaps this kind of “good” or “change” can come about to help all those unfairly prosecuted in this manner in the future. </p>
<p>I can certainly agree with you, Kluge, that this is not the WORST case, but I also think it was pretty bad, nonetheless, and certainly way beyond a hiccup in these peoples’ lives.</p>
<p>Even this week, in particular, I was thinking about this. I have felt sorry for the Duke defendants and their families for a while now. But as bad as I think they have suffered, it was in NO comparison to the college kids and their families at Virginia Tech (the slaughtered ones, in particular). I still think the Duke families had it really rough. Obviously, there are always those who have it worse.</p>
<p>Also, again, I don’t think white affluent males have it worse. Clearly throughout history, it has often been poor Black males who have had it worse. I completely disagree with Joev on any of that. However, in THIS case, bias was a factor in how the case played out.</p>
<p>
0 for 2, Berurah. I’m just as human as the next person. In fact, I feel injustice directed at me and “people like me” much more keenly than I feel about things I relate to less closely. Have you even noticed how 600 people drowning in a ferry sinking in India is on page 5 while a local kid missing is on page 1? I read that paper, it’s designed for what I find interesting. So, I say without pride or apology, I instinctively feel more emotionally involved in things that affect people I perceive to be like me. As I’m an affluent white guy, I tend to gravitate to the same sort of stories as most other white people - which is, like I said, why I was drawn to this story in the first place. These students could be my own sons. James Giles couldn’t. I have to work to remember to try to assess events without too much of that natural bias, because I can’t honestly deny that it’s there. </p>
<p>As to your belief that the outcome would have been the same if the defendants were poor and minority: I appreciate your faith in the system. My feeling: 50-50. It could have gone either way. There are a lot of hardworking, talented public defenders out there who would have grabbed a case like this and shook it out like a terrier. On the other hand, there are a lot who would have picked up the file, made some standard motions, and pressured the defendants to take a plea bargain. Remember - I actually work in the system, albeit in a different state. I see how things really work. As to whether your perceived moral superiority would actually lead you to feel the exact same sense of moral outrage in either case… well, I don’t know you. Do you in fact feel just as outraged by the overwhelmingly poor and predominantly minority men who have been freed from prison after proof of their innocence was belatedly dug up as you do about the three Duke students who never went to jail? I’ve never heard you mention anything in that vein. Do you feel the same about a famine in Africa as you do about a “white woman in peril” in your home state? Probably not. It’s just human nature.</p>
<p>P.S. I have noticed that when I bring the exact same type of dispassionate analysis to a subject which results in a statement some readers disagree with as I previously brought to one they agreed with, they tend to accuse me of having lost my previous keen insight!</p>
<p>
<em>rofl</em> kluge. I had it pegged as 2 for 2 on my part! See what perspective will do for ya? ;)</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Kluge…your PS is funny! 
Seriously, though, I think you have provided keen insight on the long Duke thread (the old one and this one), and I value what you have to say. As with anyone, I can agree with a lot they say and really like them and think they are keen and smart, but I can still disagree with something ELSE they have to say!</p>
<p>
Kluge–
still wondering about this…</p>
<p>kluge (and/or epistrophy)~</p>
<p>Still wondering about this too…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>B,</p>
<p>I’d give you 3 for 3, but I’m not a lawyer or bean counter ! ;)</p>
<p>Berurah:</p>
<p>Re your question about “pro bono” work:</p>
<p>As is the case with many criminal defense lawyers, my clients are an extremely varied bunch - economically and otherwise. Some are able to pay me very well - and do. Others retain me privately but at a reduced fee, which I agree to because it is evident that they cannot afford to pay more and I find their case interesting and worth taking for reasons other than money. Other clients have even less money and I am appointed by a judge to represent them at a significantly below-market hourly fee (which is paid by the court system). And others I represent for nothing at all.</p>
<p>1sokkermom~
Well, thanks, 1sm, but then, we all know what if you’re NOT a lawyer, then you are incapable of logical analysis! ;)</p>
<p>epistrophy~
Thanks for this. I appreciate hearing about it! Also, it’s good to know in case one of mine ends up in trouble. I’m <em>SURE</em> you wouldn’t mind helping out such a great CC acquaintance, right?? 
<em>ROFL</em> Seriously, though, I do admire your practicing what you preach.</p>
<p>~berurah</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>To me, nuff said…</p>
<p>OK - finally some GOOD news - don’t mean to change the subject - but…</p>
<p><a href=“http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007/04/18/accused-former-duke-lax-player-lands-morgan-stanley-job/[/url]”>http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007/04/18/accused-former-duke-lax-player-lands-morgan-stanley-job/</a></p>
<p>The news that JeepMom just linked to is GREAT news for Dave Evans. This was the young man who had a very good job lined up at J.P. Morgan Chase investment bank upon graduation last year but the offer was rescinded when he was indicted. Now that he has been cleared by the AG and found innocent of all charges, that firm gave him back the offer but Evans declined. However, he has now been offered a high paying “plum” job at Morgan Stanley in their investment banking analyst program. This came about as the CEO of Morgan Stanley is an alum, as well as a Trustee of Duke, who has been supporting Evans throughout his ordeal. I’m very happy to hear that Dave can attempt to get his life back on track. Hopefully Reade and Colin can go onto colleges they’d like to attend next year and even play lacrosse again. Things will surely get better for them in the coming years. Even so, they are forever tainted by these allegations unfortunately. Hopefully, the worst is finally over. It must have been a hellish year.</p>
<p>That’s really, really awesome news. Morgan Stanley is a superior company, much better than JP Morgan, and YAY for Evans for turning them down when they renewed their offer!!!</p>
<p>Whoa - I go away for a couple of hours and it’s questions, questions, questions! Re: the “hiccup” comment. What happened to these young men and their families was bad. But (like I said) I do expect that they will be compensated, one way or another, for their financial costs. Dave Evans is resuming what I don’t doubt will be a successful career; I’m not surprised. I’m pretty sure that Seligmann and Finnerty will have their choices of schools to transfer to. In sum, I think the objective losses will be pretty well covered. As for the loss of peace of mind, well, we’re really not guaranteed peace of mind, and none of us enjoy it completely. None of the really bad things that happen to people happened to them: they haven’t lost a close family member, they weren’t raped, they haven’t been seriously physically injured. They were accused, taunted, lived in suspense, and then dramatically and publicly exonerated. They have no reason to care about what the maroons who still wonder darkly about “what really happened that night” because those people are pathetic losers, and our guys know that. Much, much worse things happen to young people all the time, and usually without the triumphant come-from-behind victory at the end. I honestly don’t see these three spending much more time crying in their beer or pacing around their attic rooms in psychological torment in the future. I think they’ll be fine. </p>
<p>About pro bono work: I actually don’t consider myself a “defense attorney.” Years ago (okay, decades) I did some criminal trial work - mostly prostitutes, petty thieves, that kind of thing - but I left it behind for exclusively civil litigation long ago. That morphed into appellate work, I got board certified as a specialist, and I started to accept criminal appeals for indigent defendants (just like Epistrophy does in trial court.) It’s not technically “pro bono” because I do get paid - 25% of my normal fee. I used to limit this to 4 or 5 cases a year, because the pay for working on these cases barely covered my office overhead for the time spent. But what I actually do do pro bono is advise regular (i.e. non-criminal) people who have civil issues like contract disputes, wage claims, etc. and need advice about how to deal with their problem. (I do this for people in particular fields through organizations I have a history with. I actually have expertise in this area, as opposed to criminal law, where I consider myself a dabbler compared to the likes of Epistrophy.) Unlike criminal defendants’ who do get a lawyer provided for them, regular people with a legal problem are largely left out to dry. (And lately I’ve been accepting more criminal cases - my wife pointed out that I can work on them on weekends and evenings if they get in the way of my regular practice.)</p>
<p>Kluge,
You ducked the question. the question was
Maybe, just maybe they will be compensated for financial costs, but the emotional cost is a far, far bigger price. But, thanks to limits placed on pain and suffering in most states, that isn’t compensable. Yes they HAVE been raped. It is just that their assault was not a sexual one. With all that has happened this week, most folks have a heightened sensitivity to the emotional scars left from chronic stress. </p>
<p>By the way, try working in healthcare. Thanks to the continued reduced reimbursements to healthcare providers from the insurance industry, we work for 25% of our normal fees most of the time.</p>