<p>Enlighten me - does NCAA say a D1 coach can dictate the profession the guests a student athlete is permitted to have in his or her private home during non-practice hours? For example, would they be allowed to invite, say, accountants, or landscapers, but, not “strippers”? Or what legal business transactions are permissible? Or if they are allowed to drink alcohol, if over 21?</p>
<p>Yeah, if a coach says, no landscapers – which would border on being so stupid as to call into question his sanity right there – it would be a team rule and the team would be expected to follow it, regardless of age or location if that’s what the rule was.</p>
<p>But nobody’s suggesting he should have come up with a capricious rule. I’m saying an in-season team stripper party would be safely within the bounds of a rule that ought to exist – even if it’s implied by other rules – and that the team would be expected to stick to. The situation itself demonstrates how complying with these kinds of rules benefits the team and how failing to comply with them lets the whole team down. You can let your team down off the field at least as easily as you can by messing up an assignment during a game. And for all the praise that coaches rightly receive for molding young men and women and building their character, I can’t see why it’s so hard to grasp that a D1 coach at a top-rated institution like Duke shouldn’t be expected to project his influence and set rules and expectations for his team off the field.</p>
<p>“No drinking in season” is the sort of rule that would apply to all athletes on a team (that’s the operative word) regardless of age. The coach can make the rule. And, yeah, players can disobey it. In fact, I’m sure it’s a rule that gets disobeyed plenty. </p>
<p>But here we’re not talking about an individual player or two breaking a team rule and getting caught at a bar. We’re talking about the CAPTAINS setting up a stripper party specifically for the team. There either was no guidance from the coach or his captains blew him off. That doesn’t scream out as being outrageous to you?</p>
<p>When your team is making a run at a national championship and the captains throw a team stripper party, you’ve got a team that’s out of control. And in light of the fact that prior to the season Brodhead had raised concerns about the lacrosse team becoming something of a problem child, it blows my mind that the party took place. The team had no respect for Pressler by disobeying a team rule or Pressler had no respect for Brodhead by not making it clear enough to the team that something this outlandish better not happen. </p>
<p>However you want to slice it, Brodhead’s options were limited. When this story broke I knew two things. The season was going to end – which was far gentler than a death sentence for the sport – and Pressler needed to find a new gig. There was also the matter of Ryan McFadyen’s e-mail which I assumed would be the end of his playing career. Even if Mangum recanted right then and there, these outcomes seemed pretty clear to me then and they make sense today.</p>
<p>This team represented Duke – whether they were over 21 or off-campus – and that sort of in-season idiocy is proof that they failed their school and that the coach failed to fulfill a basic expectation of a D1 coach at a school like Duke.</p>
<p>“When your team is making a run at a national championship and the captains throw a team stripper party, you’ve got a team that’s out of control”</p>
<p>Or a team that’s really good. Is that what bugs you here? You’ve mentioned more than once. </p>
<p>Maybe they should have hired the pole cpa’s. </p>
<p>While not saying it was the brighest move, it wasn’t all that outrageous either. It was college aged boys having fun. According to RS if the LAX players wanted sex, they didn’t have to pay strippers anyway. </p>
<p>Sometimes your opponent can do all sorts of stuff that you can’t or won’t and they still beat you. That’s sport.</p>
<p>Goggle “Georgie Best” he amazed folks for years. </p>
<p>“I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.” george best. </p>
<p>“I used to go missing a lot…Miss Canada, Miss United Kingdom, Miss World”</p>
<p>"guilty of felony bad judgment.” george.</p>
<p>Not only that, but, within NCAA guidelines, I would expect the head coach and the assistant coaches to be leaders, mentors, teachers, examples of responsible beahavior, consensus builders, and athletically and socially competent, and also have the ability to develop and groom the student athlete. What I would NEVER expect or want is to send my child off to college and simply have her exist under the governance of a surrogate parent or substitute mommy, and or have the head coach play the role of parent of grade school children with college students. I want the coach to be a coach, I don’t want the coach to be wiping my daughter’s nose or tucking her into bed and reading her a story every night. These student athletes are ADULTS, and, I am aware of no law or for that matter rule that says that they cannot host parties, alcohol included, and hire strippers/dancers, etc. They know what is expected of them in the classroom and on the field, and it is their responsibility to conduct their daily activities in such a way that supports achieving and even exceeding those expectations. </p>
<p>I simply cannot imagine how Pressler can be held accountable for the every move and action of 40+ adult men, and, quite frankly, I wouldn’t want a coach to even try to micromanage this or any other collection of college students.</p>
<p>Such as it was, from all accounts it wasn’t even that outrageous of a party from what I can see. Wasn’t one of the residents of the house - one of the captains - in his room watching Letterman the entire time? And they were all certainly sober enough to ambulate away from the premises sometime before 1:00 a.m., so, they weren’t inebriated either…</p>
<p>If someone hadn’t decided to make false claims of rape, no one outside of those specifically invited would have even KNOWN there was a party, seems like…</p>
<p>Was the party the best possible way these young men could have spent their time and money? Of course not. But that hardly makes Pressler eligible for unemployment…</p>
<p>Well, now both of you are just being silly – and convincing yourselves that you’re making sense. </p>
<p>First, you (lts) tried to dodge and weave by recalling that the party took place before the season. Then – when that was false – you tried to say it was a last hurrah before they got back into the thick of things. Huh? Well, you got two opinions with D1 lacrosse experience that that ain’t how it works. So now you’re covering up by claiming it’s just part of growing up and par for the course?</p>
<p>An in-season stripper party thrown by team captains is outrageous. Not getting that, as a parent, ranks right up there with the cluelessness of the captains. </p>
<p>And it was in season, even if you had conveniently misled yourself that it wasn’t so bad because it had occurred before the season. </p>
<p>This is college lacrosse, not the NBA where you increase your street cred by acting crude. It’s not just any old college, either. It’s Duke University we’re talking about. Perhaps that’s where there’s a disconnect and you think Duke is the same as Anyold U. </p>
<p>Seeing as this was a team function – albeit unofficial – they were representing Duke University. Poorly I might add. Not so poorly you might add. They took the risk that things would go south. Which is one reason coaches set expectations and rules for players. It’s why pro players have morality clauses in their contracts. Playing on a team means having expectations. Coaches give players off-season workout programs and you can ignore them if you want, but you betray yourself, your teammates and your coach if you don’t follow them. And believe me…those off-season workouts are far more draconian than a rule that curtails in-season partying.</p>
<p>Here’s another reality check: Team rules aren’t just a matter of wiping noses. They build cohesion. They form a code of responsibility and accountability – and honor – among teammates and the coaching staff. And, of course, they keep the team competitive by keeping players from doing things off the field that impact performance on the field. In case you didn’t notice, the players would have benefited from not getting caught up in the party because things do get out of control and, also in case you hadn’t noticed, a whole lot of people were let down by teammates who screwed up. So this isn’t wiping noses at all. The rules I’m talking about directly impact the entire team.</p>
<p>How can you not get that?</p>
<p>It’s plain from previous posts here that you’re really not aware of what it’s like to play a Div. 1 sport…with this talk of taking mid-season breaks, having one last (in season) party during spring break, and coaches not being accountable when the captains throw a stripper party that reflects negatively on the university community. Frankly, I thought these were all lessons one learned in Little League…but I guess not.</p>
<p>Now, if you want to delude yourselves that Pressler would have been effectively wiping the players’ noses by prohibiting something like a stripper party for the team during their season, I can’t stop you from that malady. You’re (presumably) adults and I don’t want to wipe your noses with reality. </p>
<p>Boys will be boys? You two have a rather low opinion of what should be expected of the Duke community. But circle the wagons. One of you will put your hands over your ears, the other over their eyes, and somewhere, I assume, a third monkey will complete the picture.</p>
<p>P.S.: I mention the fact that they were vying for a national championship because Duke is a school that goes all out and competes to win, not to field a team for its own sake. That’s partly why Duke is a great university.</p>
<p>I didn’t think Duke’s request for an extra year of eligibility for the Duke Lax team members would be granted by the NCAA–but they did give it to them!! Now some guys have a big decision to make!</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/duke_lacrosse/story/585148.html[/url]”>www.newsobserver.com/news/crime_safety/duke_lacrosse/story/585148.html</a></p>
<p>Good for them!!! Congrats Duke Lax!!! :)</p>
<p>D, that’s total nonsense. In the first place, I do not accept the premise that they were NOT on a scheduled, approved break. Second, D1 teams do in fact have parties, and, often there will be alcohol consumed at those parties, and, yes, I am sure from time to time strippers are hired. If you’ve ever been invited to drop in on such parties, you will also know that food is consumed, movies are watched, email is answered, laundry is done in tandem, and about 100 other activities that are rather normal for today’s student athlete - championship teams and struggling teams alike. </p>
<p>An important part of the building of championship performers is to grant them time off, both for mental and physical recovery, and there is no reason in the world why socialization cannot and does not happen in tandem with off-season workouts. </p>
<p>I did not suggest that the behavior of the young men was angelic or admirable - but it certainly wasn’t felonious, either - I would characterize it as within range of normal behavior for college students - who are also athletes or perhaps not. The situation only strayed outside the boundaries of “normal” when someone claimed to have been raped. What I did suggest - and I stand by what I suggested - is that to fire Pressler was inappropriate and an unfortunate course of action - well - actually, it was downright stupid - which was the original point of this ludicrous exchange of posts.</p>
<p>What would be far more productive is to get Nifong and his ilk fired, but, unfortunately that is taking an extremely long time to happen.</p>
<p>
So what happens to the statistics of the players who come back for that extra year? If their statistics for the half year are counted, they would look a lot better than they actualy were.</p>
<p>@ latetoschool: That’s some crazy world you live in where team captains throwing a stripper party is normal. Maybe for a frathouse, but this was an athletic team function.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Now it’s “socialization?” Great euphemism. Cling to your delusion that this was off-season under any definition. Or normal team behavior. Maybe I’m too elitist or have too high an opinion of Duke University for thinking they expect better.</p>
<p>@ razorsharp: Good question, but I think that’s part and parcel of the decision when there’s a season-ending injury or for other reasons students come back for an extra year granted by the NCAA. That’s not really an answer because I don’t know if there is some “discounting” that’s taken into account if – say – a career record is broken. Whatever the answer is, I don’t think it’s going to be an answer that’s peculiar to the Duke players.</p>
<p>
Quick Q and comment here. The question is, since I hadn’t heard anything about a direct statement from President Brodhead to Coach Pressler regarding the team, I was wondering where that came from . Is it part of the new book, or…?</p>
<p>For the comment - the office of the president does apparently take a back seat to basketball, given that the president’s first day of work was consumed by standing in front of Schwartz-Butters with a megaphone begging his special assistant to stay on the job…</p>
<p>D,yer, I am sure that Duke is a very nice school, as are all of the schools in the ACC. We know a few of the athletes personally, though none on the men’s lax team. No one is attempting to downgrade Duke, or the championship potential of the lax team. </p>
<p>You seem to keep wanting to demonize them, and their coach. Was having a party (and a rather “normal” party at that, although with anomolous consequences) the very best idea the lot of them ever had? Of course not. Was the acquisition of strippers, or exotic dancers, etc. a stoke of genius? No again. But none of it rises to the level of firing Pressler. I’d even speculate that today, the president of Duke may very well wish that he had a “do over”, so he could take it back. It certainly was an unwise course of action and a very unfortunate, unfair decision. </p>
<p>I am looking forward to reading the gentleman’s book when it comes out.</p>
<p>@ DukeEgr93: I need to correct that. It was Alleva (the Duke AD), not Brodhead (the President), who spoke directly to Pressler before the '06 season about keeping the team in line. Brodhead was aware of the meeting, but he did not – according to press reports – discuss it directly. The main point I made is unchanged. Pressler was warned by his superior that there were problems with the team and “he needed to ‘get them in line’”</p>
<p>Source: <a href=“Duke AD: Lacrosse Coach Warned Last Year About Players' Behavior”>Duke AD: Lacrosse Coach Warned Last Year About Players' Behavior;
<p>Link to more information on cheating scandal at duke </p>
<p><a href=“http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2007/06/07/News/Convicted.In.Fuqua.Case.Cry.Out-2912977.shtml[/url]”>http://media.www.dukechronicle.com/media/storage/paper884/news/2007/06/07/News/Convicted.In.Fuqua.Case.Cry.Out-2912977.shtml</a></p>
<p>Trial tomorrow…</p>
<p>"By Associated Press
Monday, June 11, 2007 - Updated: 11:23 AM EST</p>
<p>RALEIGH, N.C. - More than a year after he took the lead in investigating claims three men raped a stripper at a party thrown by Duke’s lacrosse team - Durham County District Attorney Mike Nifong will stand trial himself tomorrow. </p>
<pre><code> He is scheduled to face ethics charges ranging from lying to the court to withholding potentially exculpatory evidence.
“On one hand, he’s very anxious to go ahead and have the hearing so he can present the evidence about the allegations against him,” said David Freedman, one of Nifong’s two attorneys. “On the other hand, it’s an extremely stressful situation for any lawyer to go through.”
Nifong, in numerous interviews, claimed they weren’t cooperating with police. In fact, they largely were. He pressed ahead even when it became clear his only evidence was the accuser’s myriad accounts of an attack that state prosecutors would later conclude never occurred.
“This case reverberates in every courtroom in Durham County,” said Bill Thomas, a longtime Durham defense attorney who said he had a “healthy mutual respect” for Nifong until he took on an uncharged Duke lacrosse player as a client last year and became an outspoken critic."
</code></pre>
<p>It should be on Court TV at 10 a.m. WRAL is probably going to have some of it also–I think on their website. This should last all week, and Collin, Dave and Reade are going to be there, as are their mothers! It will certainly be interesting!</p>
<p>What will happen to Nifong?</p>
<p>Meanwhile, in Georgia, where there’s a prosecutor and now an Attorney General who are ACTUALLY screwing up a kid, the silence is deafening:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case/index.html[/url]”>http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/11/teen.sex.case/index.html</a></p>
<p>Genarlow Wilson, a good kid and a senior on the football team with scholarship offers, was approached by a sophomore girl who – at her request – performed oral sex on him. For that he was prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and has served two years now of a ten year sentence.</p>
<p>If they had had intercourse it would have been a misdemeanor. But due to a quirk in the law at the time oral sex between two young people was a felony sex offense. (That law was changed, but a court ruled that it didn’t have the language necessary to make it retroactive.)</p>
<p>Finally, a judge ruled that the punishment was cruel and unusual and he vacated the sentence. But the State Attorney General is appealing…and that means that Wilson remains behind bars. That’s right, the Attorney General is appealing a finding that an obsolete law – a law that’s obsolete because the legislature decided it was incredibly unjust – is cruel and unusual punishment. And the one person serving time for this offense – with two years served – is being kept locked up.</p>
<p>CNN feature story - that was linked to above </p>
<p>116,000 Google Results <a href=“Genarlow Wilson[/url] - Google Search”>Genarlow Wilson - Google Search;
1095 Google News Articles <a href=“http://news.google.com/news?q=Genarlow+Wilson[/url]”>http://news.google.com/news?q=Genarlow+Wilson</a>
even reported in New Zealand <a href=“LawFuel”>LawFuel;
<p>Doesn’t sound like silence to me. ;)</p>
<p>D’yer Maker - I’m not sure to what you are comparing the Genarlow case when you say “ACTUALLY” above. </p>
<p>Also, I agree the silence in some circles is deafening. In fact, the only place I have really seen the Wilson case discussed is at the LieStoppers page. Now, I wouldn’t expect to have read it on this thread, this thread being specifically about the Duke LAX case…</p>
<p>The Wilson case has also been discussed on CC. </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=292975[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=292975</a></p>