@Hunt “So, if there are 700 Muslims at Duke, and only a handful of atheists, how does that cut?”
There are almost certainly at least as many atheists, and definitely more “nones” on campus. I am not familiar with the phrase, “How does that cut?” What do you mean?
@Hanna “Atheists make their point on the Duke campus every day.”
I am not sure. Here in the mid-west, it is still difficult to tell anyone you are an atheist. I think it is easier to be a Muslim than an open atheist. It is probably more okay on campus, but it is in the south, so I am not sure.
“I do standby the claim that insisting Muslims worship a different God does nothing but alienate Islam to make it appear a “foreign” or “unfamiliar” faith which only fuels a lot of the paranoia that exists around Islam.”
In my experience, Christians do not believe that they worship the same God as Muslims. At least conservative Christians don’t. They believe that Muslims do not worship any God at all. Furthermore, in thinking about it, disagreeing over whether three imaginary beings are different, or they are really the same imaginary being is an odd discussion. Conservative Christians do believe that they worship the same God as the Jews, but not the same God as the Muslims. Apparently, you have some conclusive proof that all three imaginary Gods are the same imaginary God.
Many other Christians do believe that Christians, Muslims, and Jews worship the same God (I count myself as one of those Christians.) Conservative and/or Evangelical Christians don’t speak for all Christians.
I don’t know how many (if any) U.S. colleges have calls to prayer. I do know that Duke prides itself on its Islamic studies program and its acceptance/welcome of those practicing Islam.
@Much2learn - I don’t know why you don’t tag me when you quote my posts (you tag other users but explicitly refrain from using my username - you quoted someone else who mentioned me earlier and substituted “Preamble” with “that person”); it’d make it a lot easier for me to respond rather than reading through every post only to find you are directing something at me. If you do not think the argument about whether there is one or multiple Abrahamic God(s) is relevant, you should probably stop talking about “your experience” with the matter.
@scout59 “I do know that Duke prides itself on its Islamic studies program and its acceptance/welcome of those practicing Islam.”
I think this selectivity targeted pride drove the negative response.
If they had announced a group of changes designed to make people of all beliefs feel more welcome and included a call to prayer (preferably a non-loudspeaker version), I don’t think there would have been the blowback. The way they did it, however, it looked like they specifically wanted to show pride and acceptance/welcome of those practicing Islam. You seem to be confirming that.
“Many other Christians do believe that Christians, Muslims, and Jews worship the same God (I count myself as one of those Christians.) Conservative and/or Evangelical Christians don’t speak for all Christians.”
I did not suggest that conservative christians speak for everyone. I am only suggesting that Preamble’s suggestion that they are all the same, is not agreed upon broadly by the faithful.
@Warblersrule “The percentage of Jewish students in the UC system and Muslim students at Duke is approximately equal (~9%).”
I am not sure what law incorporates more rights for larger groups, but according to my math 700 Muslims at Duke divided by about 15,000 students is between 4 and 5%, not 9%. Just an observation.
@Hunt “I’d analyze it in terms of free speech rather than exercise of religion, and thus I’d only give them the key if any other group that wanted to spread its point of view could also get the key.”
In my mind, giving dorm keys to proselytizing religions seems to be moving closer and closer toward a University endorsement of those religions. Moving from providing facilities to practice their religion conveniently and safely, toward special privileges that annoy other students does not seem like a good idea. I doubt whether the Muslim students want Elder Price and Elder Cunningham to have special access to bang on their dorm room door either. lol
“If you do not think the argument about whether there is one or multiple Abrahamic God(s) is relevant, you should probably stop talking about “your experience” with the matter.”
Is there another way any of us can talk about a subject than through the lens of our own experience? It least I had the courtesy to clarify that it was my experience. You simply asserted that “Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians.” This is your opinion, but you declare it as a fact, and then impugn and name call anyone who disagrees. That is troubling. Now you are again trying to get others to not post on a message board. I suggest that the only thing that works for any of us on the forum is to make a persuasive case instead of name calling, playing the victim, and discouraging others from posting.
As an agnostic, you argue strenuously that you know for sure that three Gods, who you do not believe exist, are definitely the same non-existant God, and not different non-existant Gods. I am wondering what evidence you have for their non-existant sameness, and how you were able to rule out non-existent differentness?
I laud the idea that if we could convince the faithful that these Gods are the same, it that might help people get along. But in reality, Christians have killed huge numbers of other Christians, and Muslims have killed huge numbers of other Muslims, so even if we could magically convince everyone that their magical deities were all the same magical deity, I don’t see any reason to believe that this would ameliorate anything.
@Much2learn
LOL. Everything I mentioned regarding the Abrahamic faith came from material that I learned in the Religious Studies department of my University and my working knowledge of the Arabic language. Please tag me (as I’ve asked numerous times before) - so that I can actually be notified when you mention me/quote me.
Huh. I didn’t realize that conservative christians had a different god than moderate Christians and I expect that would likely be news to some of them, too.
@Marie1234 No one thinks that different Christians worship different Gods. More traditional Catholics and conservative Protestants do not accept that the Muslim God is the same God that they worship as @Preamble1776 claims. That is my point. Primarily conservative Christians believe this because Muslims do not recognize the Trinity, reject that Jesus is the son of God, reject the Holy Spirit, do not believe that Jesus died for people’s sins, and do not believe that Jesus was resurrected at all. For Conservative Christians this is a big deal. These are the most important pillars of their faith.
In more liberal Catholic and Protestant circles, this can be overlooked in an effort to all get along. They are not as rigid about the inerrancy of the Bible, so exactly what it says is not so critical and much more open to interpretation.
Muslims usually believe that there is just one God, and that Jews and Christians are just getting it wrong. (Quran (9:30) - “And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”).
@much2learn is right. Mormons say that they are Christians, and that they worship the same Father and Son as other Christians. Some self-identified Christians agree with that characterization, and others strongly disagree and reject the idea that the Mormons worship the same deities and belong under the Christian label. Which sects belong in which umbrella categories varies a lot depending on who you ask.
That said, I think that non-believers who study comparative religion are as entitled to viewpoints on these questions as anyone else.
You know, I don’t even think this whole brouhaha had much to do with religion at all. The stated goal was to promote diversity which is quite different from allowing muslims to practice their religion which I assume they have been doing just fine without the speaker system, so yeah.
Putting aside all the rhetoric about whether Muslims, Christians and Jews worship the same deity and what (if anything is “owed” to atheists in terms of inclusion, I am amazed at the stupidity of the Duke administrators for going forward with the decision to broadcast the call to prayer for 3 minutes all over campus every week. What exactly did they think the response from the larger community, as well as the alumni on whom they rely for contributions? It was so very predictable that they were going to have to back off that decision.
This whole episode seems to epitomize the entire Ivory Tower, out-of-touch with reality, tin-ear mentality which so many see in university administrators. If I were a Duke alum, i’d have serious reservations about handing over any donations to a school currently run by such tone deaf individuals.
“broadcast the call to prayer for 3 minutes all over campus every week”
It wasn’t all over campus. It was going to be one “moderate” loudspeaker in the bell tower. Someone who knows Duke better than I do can say how much of the campus would be in earshot.
I think someone asked earlier about whether other campuses broadcast a call to prayer, and I just remembered reading that University of Tulsa built a mosque on campus. I did a cursory google search but couldn’t find much about it. Perhaps someone on this thread is familiar with that university.
“What they are asking for is something that is a normal part of the practice of what it is to be a Muslim: the call to prayer delivered from the mosque.” Can anyone knowledgeable about Muslim religious practices comment on whether it is normal practice to broadcast the call to prayer more than once, in different languages?
Here’s a concept - maybe everyone can just shut up about their religion already? Go meet in the appropriate meeting spaces set aside, pray quietly and appropriately, and leave everyone else out of it?
Amen to that. We wouldn’t be having this discussion, or so many real problems, if people could just keep their religion to themselves. Unfortunately, a number of faiths, including evangelical Christianity, include proselytizing and converting others as part of their mission.