What do you think about Duke University broadcasting The Lord’s Prayer campus-wide once a week? What if the prayer is Jewish? What if it’s a Buddhist chant? What if it’s the Muslim call to prayer?
http://news.yahoo.com/duke-university-draws-fire-announces-weekly-muslim-call-195302076.html
Well, it wouldn’t be fair to broadcast a Christian or Jewish prayer because that would be an act of persecution againt anyone who doesn’t subscribe to those faiths. A Muslim call to prayer is different because…well, um…maybe we have to be extra sensitive because Muslims are unpopular right now in certain quarters? Or because Duke wants to show how diverse it is? No, I’m not buying any of that either but as a private institution I guess Duke can do anything they want.
Well, ok then. This should be interesting.
Duke isn’t broadcasting anything. It is permitting a student group to announce its on-campus services in a traditional way. The equivalent is ringing the church bells before the Sunday Christian service at the chapel, which they have been doing at that location for about 80 years, attracting no comment.
It’s a private school…it can broadcast anything it wants…a christian prayer, a jewish prayer, a muslim prayer, or whatever…as often as it wants.
catholic univs have crucifixes in classrooms…many students who attend aren’t Catholic …is that offensive?
Actually, it apparently was, at one of the colleges I attended. It was a Catholic college, and the Jewish students lobbied (to no avail) to have the crucifixes removed from every lecture hall where they were displayed.
@Hanna “The equivalent is ringing the church bells before the Sunday Christian service at the chapel, which they have been doing at that location for about 80 years, attracting no comment.”
I hear what you are saying, but this is a rare time that I am going to disagree with one of your comments. I understand that they are trying to show respect for people of all beliefs. However, it is my understanding that the Muslim call to pray (adhan) includes phrases that are contrary to that such as “There is no God but Allah.” That is offensive to Atheists and all other religions. I am pretty sure that if the Atheist club wanted to announce that “God is imaginary” once a week on the loud speaker, the school would not allow it. I bet they were too cowardly to even publish the Charlie Hebdo cartoons. It seems that the rights of Muslims trump the religious beliefs of other people as well as freedom of speech.
I don’t think ringing a church bell is objectionable, but If the christian church wanted to announce that Jesus is the only way to heaven and the rest of you will burn in hell, I think that would be problematic. I am not sure why they would extend more rights to Muslims than they do to Christians or Atheists.
Having said that, they are a private school. I do not imagine that this will help their recruiting students from their Southern christian base. I imagine there is going to be a lot of blowback on this from Alumni. We will see.
This is an extremely poor time to make the announcement. The university should have waited until after the flames from the extremist Islamic attack on Charlie Hebdo burned down.
Agreed.
Absolutely, 100% disagree. No one should put off anything just because a few lunatics who happen to be the same religion decided to do something cowardly and unconscionable. No one would suggest that Christians put off something after, say, an abortion clinic bombing or something equally barbaric.
I’m an atheist and really not bothered in the least by what private schools do. Whatever they want to do is their business. I would have issues with public schools doing this the same as I would have an issue with crucifixes on the walls or a prayer at graduation.
By the way, how is someone saying “There is no God but Allah” offensive? Again, as an atheist, I find no offense. To me, one imaginary god is just as equally non-existent as any other imaginary god. If someone is offended just by hearing that, they have too thin skin IMO.
ETA: Much2learn, do you equally have a problem with public displays of the 10 Commandments on non-Church property? After all, there is the same “There is no God but me” thing on there…
@romanigypsyeyes “do you equally have a problem with public displays of the 10 Commandments on non-Church property?”
Good question, and yes I do have the same issue with the 10 commandments. I think it should be equal for everyone, or else it should not be allowed.
I think that it is fine to announce the adman, if the Atheists are allowed to announce that “God is imaginary” once a week. However, I think that the administrators will decide that “God is imaginary” is offensive and not allowed, but “there is no God but Allah” is fine.
That is my issue. What do you think?
@Much2learn
The call to prayer includes the testimony that you mentioned (Shahada) which in Islam is “There is no god but God” - Allah means “God” in Arabic. An Arab Christian living in the Middle East would refer to God as “Allah” – Islam is an extension of the Abrahamic faiths that views Muhammad as the final prophet (after Abraham and Jesus). In Hebrew, there are multiple names used for God - all of which are the same; though used in different contexts (some are spoken while others are only read exclusively in the Torah and subsequent texts).
لا إله إلا الله
There is no god but God
The longer variant is of the excerpt is:
“I testify that (there is) no god except God”
When people substitute “Allah” in for God when they discuss the Islamic testimony, they’re often trying to craft a schism between Islam and the the Judeo-Christian tradition when in reality, that schism does not exist. Muslims worship the same God as Jews and Christians; albeit with different rituals and their holy scripture was revealed to a different prophet. Muslims also believe in the existence of Jesus Christ - Jesus Christ’s name appears more times in the Qu’ran than Muhammad. When Muslims mention the name Muhammad OR Jesus Christ, they finish with “Peace Be Upon Him” which signifies respect for a holy figure.
So while it could be interpreted as offensive to atheists (atheist isn’t capitalized; it is not a proper noun) the phrase in isolation “There is no god but God” would not be in contention with common Judeo-Christian beliefs. The Qu’ran states that Christians and Jews who remain true to their own scriptures that were revealed to them (the Bible and the Torah) will reach heaven just like Muslims who remain true to the Qu’ran. The Qu’ran teaches that the Bible and the Torah are sacred texts that should be respected in the same manner that Muslims respect the Qu’ran.
Muslims do not believe Christians will go to Hell and that the only way to Heaven is through Muhammad - the Qu’ran states that Christians, Jews, and Muslims all believe in one single God and that if they act righteously, they will earn their place in heaven.
With that said; there are over 1.5 billion Muslims on Earth. A few nut jobs in France have absolutely nothing to do with the Muslim community in the United States or the Muslim Student Association at Duke University. Duke students are not responsible for the Charlie Hebdo attack - they shouldn’t be put on trial or punished. No one is putting Muslim rights over that of other students - Duke is simply trying to create a religious pluralism that matches the religious pluralism of their student body.
Please. Evangelical churches say everyone is going to **** who isn’t “saved.” Catholic churches deny communion to Episcopalians and Presbyterians. I have been offended plenty by Christians even AS one (by birth/upbringing).
It feels inappropriate to me because it feels like an endorsement in a way that ringing church bells doesn’t.
Let’s suppose we were listening to public hs announcements over a loudspeaker - there’s a difference between “The Christian Club is going to meet at 4 pm today in room 102” and The Lord’s Prayer being read A difference between announcing that a religious service / event is about to begin, and actually leading off the service.
@sally305 - There are even people within their own denomination that are slighted by the very church that they attend!
Since my post took forever to write (I had to reference a couple of Qu’ranic verses… lol), I unfortunately did not see @romanigypsyeyes post which touched upon most of the points I made.
@preamble1776 Your opinion of the word Allah seems to depend on who you ask. As you must know, in Malaysia, only Muslims are allowed to use the word Allah, and it is illegal for non Muslims to say it. I think the word Allah means Allah, but that is jmho. Your argument is a very thin veneer designed to fool simpletons.
You seem to miss my point. Is it offensive for Atheists to announce “God is imaginary?”, if not, then I don’t have any problem with the adhan. If it is too offensive, then I do have a problem. What is your opinion about that? If you agree that the Atheists should be given equal time, as well as the Jews, and Buddists, then we can agree. I just know that there is no way that they would allow Atheists to announce “God is imaginary” they won’t even let the school paper publish the Charlie Hebdo cartoons because they might be offensive. The facts are that everyone’s religious view is offensive to someone. That is why I think that it should be kept away from government places. If you could allow everyone to do what they want to in public that would be fine, but you can’t.
I do not have any issue with Islam in particular. That must have been another poster. I have a problem with disparate treatment of one belief over another. I agree with you that what happened in France should have no bearing on the situation at Duke.
Why are we offended by what a private univ does in regards to an aspect of faith?
@Much2learn - We don’t live in Malaysia and this isn’t a matter of opinion; the word “Allah” is an Arabic term for God. Christians in Palestine, Jews in Morocco, Catholics in Lebanon all use the term “Allah” when speaking about their faith. Bibles that are printed in Arabic use the word “Allah” in place of the English word “God.” Insisting that “Allah means Allah” as just your honest opinion functions to alienate Islam from the other monotheistic faiths from which it is founded upon and this alienation could be interpreted as Islamaphobic.
Atheists do not cohere in the same manner religious groups do - they lack a belief in a God/god, this is distinctly different from an outright denial of God and thus a proclamation that “God is imaginary” would suggest that the conviction of atheists is homogenous when in reality - it isn’t. People have their own individualized reasons for lacking the belief and it cannot be compared to a religious group. Implicit atheism includes babies who have yet to form an opinion regarding the existence of deities or supernatural beings – infants would probably not outright declare that “God is imaginary.” Different variations of atheism reject different concepts or entities - some forms or facets of atheism reject deities (such as God in Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) while others reject transcendental theories and philosophies found in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. There is also positive and negative atheism which distinguishes confident affirmation that gods do not exist from other forms of non-theism.
My issue with your statement is that you are comparing a Muslim/Christian/Jewish student group to an atheist student organization which cannot be compared because atheism is not a religion. You’re also creating a hypothetical situation which may never come to fruition. If an atheist group decides, for whatever reason, that they want to chant “God is imaginary” every Friday, then that is up to Duke to decide; but Duke has not been confronted with such a task yet.
I think the call to prayer is actually quite beautiful.
So have an atheist group ask the Duke administration if they can chant “God is imaginary” every week. See what happens.
Personally, I think atheists have better things to do with their time than a silly ritual.
I do think that the majority of colleges would have far less of an issue with Christian prayers being said than Muslim prayers. Comparing prayers to something atheists would or wouldn’t do isn’t a valid comparison. You should compare religion to religion, not religion to non-religion.
(An example of privileging religions: look at the Oklahoma vs Church of Satan issues)
I do think that the majority of colleges would have far less of an issue with Christian prayers being said than Muslim prayers
Unless it’s a Christian school I don’t know why you would think this. But, this seems intentionally provocative.