<p>Here it is:
</p>
<p>it’s not hard to see why this EAD guy is infactuated with median SAT scores, because he’s still in high school, and that’s his life, SATs, he’s not even at Duke yet. Frankly, I don’t see why us Michigan supporters are having all these placement/teaching quality discussions with a guy who hasn’t attended a single class at Duke, but was only admitted to Duke this year.</p>
<p>You mean Kim Jong Il isn’t even at Duke yet?!</p>
<p>Um, I have actually completed one year at Duke so you’re wrong on that count. UCB, what’s your point exactly? It’s obvious that you don’t consider the SAT a useful academic tool. Most academic researchers have found that a higher math SAT correlates very positively with success in college. SAT scores correlates with wealth? You don’t say!! Obviously, a wealthier family is going to provide its children more resources and opportunities to be academically successfully. </p>
<p>The University of Michigan is doing a HUGE DISSERVICE to its student body and its image by admitting on the basis of “reflecting the population it serves” rather than of “who is qualified enough”. Affirmative action, which is BIG in Michigan, already takes into account the income/upbringing disparities between applicants and then some. Do you propose we give African Americans a 400 point edge on the SAT to Asians and whites? Anyway, your belief regarding why Berkeley and Michigan have weaker student bodies is wholly inaccurate.</p>
<p>The truth is Michigan and Berkeley almost admit solely on the basis of numbers and THEY STILL can’t get qualified enough individuals to enroll that would make their mid 50th SAT percentiles comparable to that of the top privates. Ivies and top private schools like Duke actually give some leeway when it comes to test scores and it is possible for someone to score 1200 on the SAT and still get into Duke, as long as it is clear that he/she is academically motivated as evidenced by very strong grades to compensate and can contribute greatly to the college community as evidences by strong extracurricular involvement. Just on the basis of numbers, this person would almost 100% be rejected from Michigan, especially if he/she applied late.</p>
<p>Essentially, Berkeley and Michigan are safety/backup schools for the strong in-state students and are only strongly pursued by in-state students who are either mediocre academically or are strong but somehow got rejected by the Ivies/top privates and weak, but wealthy, out-of-state students. All the data available supports this assertion and this definitely rings true based on my experiences. This is the truth and you cannot deny it.</p>
<p>You want to hear the truth. You couldn’t get accepted into any IL university so you settled for Duke. How does that grab you?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>ALL the data available? Available to whom? </p>
<p>I have no idea where you get YOUR data, but I can tell you that the data from Michigan challenges your statement.</p>
<p>It is true that some of MI’s top high school want to go elsewhere, and they do. BUT some of them have U-M as their first choice–not because they couldn’t go elsewhere. Not only would I bet this is also true in California, it’s also true all across the country. Even states without nationally-revered flagships find some of their top talent choosing to stay in state–and I mean CHOOSING, not being forced by lack of other potential options. </p>
<p>If every top-flight kid in the nation aspired to go to Ivies, the application volume at the Ivies would really be something. </p>
<p>This has little to do with where I fall on “who is better, Duke or U-M” question, BTW. You’re asserting something that simply isn’t true. Top publics are not the second-best fallbacks you claim they universally are.</p>
<p>I think this guy is really out of reality. Duke is NOT a ‘better’ school than schools like Cornell, Brown, NU, etc. He claims, as always, that “schools like Cornell and Brown are a notch below Duke.” I can guarantee that most of the people in the nation, and particularly in the world would not agree with that blunt, biased statement. Besides, schools like Berkeley and UMich are also not too far back, they are in fact pretty close to schools like Duke, Cornell, NU, etc. in educational quality. Also, I think that this dude is mistaking Duke for HYPSM.</p>
<p>u are doing a disservice to Duke University right now! the question one should ask at this point is, what kind of intellectual conversation is this Dukie capable of having? </p>
<p>University of Michigan stopped exercising formula based affirmative action practices and have been using a holistic approach in admitting its freshman class. (this was actually kind of big news in 2006(proposal 2))</p>
<p>Furthermore, every elite University in America practices affirmative action. I myself witnessed 2 African American students from my high school enrolling at Dartmouth, Princeton, two hispanic students enrolled at Johns Hopkins and Williams College, while also getting into other types of elite schools, including Duke, Carnegie Mellon(Comp Sci), Cornell, Columbia, MIT, while the valedictorian(Asian) was turned down by Princeton, MIT, and Columbia, with a 1500 SAT score. None of the 4 URM students scored above a 1260 on the SAT, while 3 were in the top 10%, one of them wasn’t, and my high school had a median SAT score of 900, so it wasn’t hard at all to achieve top 10%. Was that fair? NO. But, you cannot isolate Michigan for practicing affirmative action, Michigan is one of hundreds of schools that practice affirmative action, which includes Duke. </p>
<p>Michigan DOESN’T admit based on numbers alone, see this: </p>
<p>[Information</a> on U-M Admissions Lawsuits](<a href=“http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/statements/spencer07.html]Information”>http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissions/statements/spencer07.html)</p>
<p>Class of 2011:</p>
<p>In high school:
-28% elected to one or more student government offices.
-25% received all-city/all-league/all-county/all-state athletic awards.
-54% played a musical instrument.
-45% presented recitals at places such as Carnegie Hall.
-35% volunteered in a community health setting.
-62% participated in civics projects.
-27% participated in programs to help children and adults with disabilities.
-30% received community service awards.
- 20% published poems, stories, essays, and articles or have worked as editors of high school newspapers or yearbooks.
- 10% started their own business.
- 1863 different high schools
- All 50 states and 53 countries.</p>
<p>“Equating higher SAT scores with higher intellect is very flawed…”</p>
<p>You would have to suspect that it’s more positively correlated than negatively correlated, no?</p>
<p>I get the impression that SAT median is higher at Duke than Cornell, Penn, Northwestern, Brown, Columbia and would guess all have a similar % of test prep students in their class.</p>
<p>
Yes, more positively correlated IF the students take the SAT under the same initial first sitting with no coaching, practice tests and prep books…not everyone has the same benefit of practice before sitting for the exam…it’s a multiple choice test that best practices for scoring highly are easily taught.</p>
<p>Don’t forget superscoring that many universities allow with the SAT. I know that Michigan does not allow for superscoring. Not sure what the policy is with Duke and others.</p>
<p>
Congratulations, you touched on my point…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>EAD, I don’t see how Duke is a better school than Cornell, as you claim. Personally, I don’t think anyone can claim this.</p>
<p>What is your reasoning?</p>
<p>(Also, the correct phrase is, “For all intents and purposes.”)</p>
<p>
You are exactly right. I apologize if my statement seemed like an absolute. Clearly, there are exceptions to this rule as you have outlined. However, given a choice as long as there was no parental resistance of financial worries, most strong in-state UMich students choose to attend a better out-of-state private and to a much larger extent, the out-of-state kids Michigan enrolls are often Ivy/top private school rejects because Michigan is so much more expensive than those college and its financial aid is worse.</p>
<p>keefer.
Your defense of UMich’s admissions process is admirable but the fact remains that is more “numerical” in nature that those of other private institutions. An individual which has a 32+ ACT/3.9+ GPA and applies early is literally GUARANTEED to get into Michigan regardless of the quality of his or her essays/ECs/recommendations and the strength of the courseload. Your AA rant is kind of uncalled for because I never stated that is was not employed by any other university besides Michigan. Obviously, AA is in effect in colleges around the country but Michigan is notorious for using it perhaps a little bit more than other schools. You make sound Michigan sound incredibly diverse and it is, to an extent, but not in comparison to private schools percentage wise as HALF of the school is populated by in-staters. State schools cannot compete with privates when it comes to diversity of the student body. Also, you show stats that indicate Michigan students are active in their extracurricular pursuits but they are all fairly ordinary. How many Michigan students are NMFs, Intel/Siemens qualifiers, National Scholastic winners, TASP/RSI alums, USAMO/USpHO/USABO/etc. qualifiers and award-winning filmmakers? Even when you consider raw numbers, I bet the Ivies/Duke/Stanford have more.</p>
<p>
UCB, you seem to revel in the fact that state schools have students that are weaker academically and belong to a lower socioeconomic class than private schools. Usually, the top schools have wealthier students. Are you taking a jab at Duke/Stanford/Ivy League students who come from affluent backgrounds and performed well on the SAT? Private schools admit students who have taken advantage of the resourves they have been afforded with in life. The standards are higher for whites and Asians as compared to URMs, but you will find that the success of Duke students on the SAT have less to do with the fact that they are wealthier than UMich students than the fact that they made a stronger commitment to academics than Michigan students. You can’t even make statements like “private school kids are wealthier now” because these private institutions have introduced such amazing Financial Aid programs that it is now sometimes cheaper for a student to attend a private school than a public school. This is true for the cost of all private schools compared to the expenses of Michigan out of state. My friend got a better FA package from Harvard than he did from Michigan and he’s IN-STATE!!!</p>
<p>
Let me ask you this: Why do you believe that Yale is a better school than Duke? The reasons you give in response to this question will be the same reasons I will use to answer your original question.</p>
<p>EAD. You’re doing it again. Where do you get the idea than anybody, other than hawkette and yourself, thinks Duke is in the same league with HYPSM? Duke is in the second tier of the top schools, along with about 15-20 others.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>LOL!!!He doesn’t have to answer this dumb question. Yale and Harvard have always been the two best schools in the country for a very long time. The prestige difference between Yale and Duke or Yale and Cornell is pretty substantial. To suggest that there is prestige difference between Cornell and Duke is hilarious and sounds like you are truly out of reality. Actually, where I am from (Japan and Korea), almost no one has even heard of Duke. Meanwhile, schools like HYPSM, Columbia, UC Berkeley, Cornell, Penn, and few others are quite well known. Also, talking about U.S…I currently live in Chicago (lived here several yrs) and here, Cornell and Duke are similarly regarded. No one will think more highly of Duke. Simple fact. So, get off the computer once in a while, stop looking at meaningless stats such as marginal differences in SATs from collegeboard, but go out to the world and get a grip of the reality. (also, Duke’s PA score isn’t even that higher than Cornell’s. Actually, Cornell’s PA score happens to be higher.)</p>
<p>“An individual which has a 32+ ACT/3.9+ GPA and applies early is literally GUARANTEED to get into Michigan regardless of the quality of his or her essays/ECs/recommendations and the strength of the courseload.”</p>
<p>Do you have proof of this? Or is it just your anecdotal statement? If you checked out the Michigan forum, you’d find there are people with those stats who applied via Early Response, who were deferred. </p>
<p>Those statistics were not meant to show distinction, rather, I was simply telling you that Michigan students were very involved in extra-curricular activities in high school. </p>
<p>Furthermore, when comparing ECs, you cannot say one is better than another, especially when you are comparing those strictly academic achievements vs. athletic/student government leadership roles. A complete University must have a diverse range of student talents. </p>
<p>However, Michigan is usually in the top 15 in NMF unsponsored enrolled student rankings per year. We also lead in number of Fulbright scholars. (more geared to liberal arts/humanities majors)</p>
<p>In closure, I cannot fathom how I am still stuck in this discussion with you, probably because you exaggerate Duke’s strengths and Michigan’s weaknesses out of proportions, and as a alumnus I simply could not stand by this. I’m off on a plane to Oslo, end of this bickering from me.</p>
<p>Let’s not say things like “Yale and Harvard have always been the two best schools in the country for a very long time.”</p>
<p>I go to Yale, and I’m flattered by that, but let me just preempt offensive counter-arguments to that statement by saying that it is not a fact, and it can’t be proven. </p>
<p>EAD, the reason for my choosing Yale over Duke was the vast difference in financial resources/ endowment (which translates to more opportunities outside the classroom, and funding for such opportunities). I also prefer the residential college system, the less extreme party scene (IMO Duke’s is harmfully excessive; this is just an opinion though), med-school placement (94-96%), the prestigious faculty (e.g. Kagan, incoming Tony Blair, etc.), and Yale’s manifest value for the arts (5 campus symphonies!; free trips to New York for cultural experiences and many more opportunities as well). </p>
<p>I just don’t see how Duke clearly trumps Cornell in all of these areas. As a member of the Ivy Council (and having travelled across the Ivy League and spoken with members of student government), I think Cornell is incredibly underrated.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I spent my junior year abroad at Oxford, where I lived in college with British students, as well as a smattering of other American students. The Americans were from Harvard, Brown, Yale, Princeton, Amherst, Swarthmore, and Cornell. We spent a good time comparing our respective undergraduate experiences – socially and academically – and came to the conclusion that there was virtually no difference in our respective academic experiences. </p>
<p>That said, there were a lot of differences in our respective personalities and social lives, and they definitely played into the various stereotypes of each college. The Harvard student was ridiculously Type A, the Yalies were into drama and literary theory, the Brunos smoked a lot of pot, the Princeton kid was filthy rich, Amherst was deliberate and thoughtful, Swarthmore was intense and a bit odd. And yours truly was a bit excitable, but laid back and rough around the edges. The Yalies were shocked that I lived with somebody who built a climbing wall in our off-campus house in Ithaca, and I was shocked at how many student theater troupes Cornell had, etc. etc.</p>
<p>Duke is clearly not trumping anybody on this board in terms of politeness and ability to make informed conversation.</p>
<p>EAD,
As a Michigan native, you probably have as good an understanding of the quality of in-state vs out-of-state colleges as anyone in this discussion. So, isn’t it clear by now? They’re hopeless. It’s a total echo chamber for the CC U Michigan partisans.<br>
These U Michigan folks can’t handle any comment that might suggest that they aren’t the cat’s meow of college education. </p>
<p>The reality is that U Michigan is a very good college and one of the top 5 public universities in the USA with a student body profile that places it around 35th in the USA among national universities, equivalent in selectivity to private colleges like Lehigh, NYU and Tulane and slightly less than Boston College. These are facts. </p>
<p>By contrast, Duke has been a fixture in the Top 10 colleges in the USA, never once ranking below 8th in the USNWR rankings despite its weaker rep among academia. Compared to U Michigan, Duke’s selectivity is significantly stronger (and on par with Stanford), its reputation for classroom teaching excellence is superior, its graduation and retention performance is stronger, it’s got greater financial resources per capita, the class size differences are big enough to drive a truck through, etc. It’s even got much better weather. </p>
<p>But can’t you see by now…none of this matters to the U Michigan people. </p>
<p>My suggestion is to enjoy your years in Durham and be secure in the knowledge that your college probably offers the nation’s best combination available, east of Sacramento, of academic strength, great social life and outstanding athletic life. As for U Michigan undergrad, who really cares outside of the Midwest?</p>