My son has a 4.0 unweighted GPA, 34 ACT excellent SAT II and has taken advantage of AP and honors courses at a premiere private school.(3-4 per year) Sports captain and 4 year varsity athlete in 2 sports, club sports year round, president of 2 EC clubs and editor of school paper. Counselor recommending Duke. Sibling currently at an Ivy. Does sibling status confer advantage at Ivies?
Are academics about equivalent ? Social life better at Duke? and stress less at Duke? Son is conflicted but getting message that Duke is a better bet and would be harder to get into RD
The Ivy League is a disparate collection of colleges aligned by an athletic conference.
What does your son want to study?
His most impressive EC is Editor of the school paper. Northwestern has a great journalism program. So does Penn and Syracuse.
Is he interested in becoming a tech entrepreneur? The best schools for that are probably near Silicon Valley including Stanford.
Does he want to major in the performing arts? The best non-conservatory options would include Michigan, Northwestern, Rice, USC, Carnegie Mellon.
And the same logic goes on and on depending on his Dream Career different schools rise and others fall. Each Ivy has their relatively strong programs. But those 8 schools by no stretch of the imagination have the market cornered.
Intended or possible major?
Net price calculator shows affordability at both?
Duke has a fairly large fraternity and sorority scene. Princeton heavily discourages students from joining the unrecognized off-campus fraternities and sororities, but has coed eating clubs that have some similarities.
What is he interested in studying?
Sibling may help at sibling’s Ivy.
Social depends on the kid. Either can be great for the right kid. How does he feel about being in the South? How much does he like being near NYC?
Did he visit both campuses?
Academics are very strong at both schools.
Most people would choose Princeton, if admitted to both, but his odds are probably better with Duke, if he has no hard hook.
Princeton scrapped the grading curve, which is a plus.
Thank you Clarinet Dad. He is really considering Duke vs Princeton. Brother at Princeton so somewhat familiar. Liberal arts main interest at this point. Thinks Duke may be less of reach and also better experience ie less stress and more fun. Was interested in whether academics are similar, and whether you all think Duke is more fun and less stressful environment than Princeton
This was my favorite thread last year on Duke vs Princeton: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/duke-university/1657701-duke-ed-vs-princeton-scea-p1.html
I believe the OP in this thread decided to apply early to Duke and got in.
I do think sibling is a plus for an applicant. Does your younger son have similar qualifications as your older son? Plenty of kids get into ivies with strong school leadership, but what I have observed (from reading lots of cc) is that state or national level out of school accomplishments are often (but not always) the “wow” factor that makes a candidate more compelling for EA at HYPSM.
At my son’s school (private) the GC advise students to apply ED to Duke if 1) it is a top choice 2) they have no substantial hooks 3) they have a profile like your son’s, as chances are better in ED versus RD.
Thanks all for comments.
GC pushing Duke because its less of a gamble. Wants to study liberal arts, history philosophy etc. Financials fine for either. Son thinks he might have more fun and better experience at less competitive environment. Not sure if Duke really is more relaxed and less competitive environment than P. Likes both NC and NJ but having a sibling at P is a draw
And would you agree that Duke RD is a reach and a gamble?
I’m not convinced that Duke is in any measurable sense “more fun and less stressful” than Princeton. The only kid I know who went to Princeton was horribly unhappy and in fact should have graduated several years ago, but hasn’t. I don’t think he’s typical though. He sounds like a kid who would be happy in either place. I think they have a fairly similar vibe.
Whether or not there is a legacy bump from being a sibling is something you will have to ask the admissions office. It varies by school, there is no Ivy rule about how to decide whether someone should be a legacy. Some only count parent who were undergrads, some count parents who were grad students, some count grandparents, and some are interested in siblings.
They are both solid schools. Beautiful campuses.
I would think Duke is a happier place. And if that is the goal look at Rice and Vanderbilt too.
Build a wide net, visit and he will know where he feels at home and coupled with where he gets admitted he should have some great options.
Liberal arts will be better at Princeton overall but it would still depend on his focus within Liberal Arts. Princeton would probably be a bit more challenging, but Liberal Arts is not the most demanding major at either school.
If he wants less stress, more fun, a better chance of admission, but still an excellent education, I think Duke is a great decision.
Thanks all. I think he wants less stress and especially less stress the next few months. IMO that is what is really driving him towards Duke bc he has better chance of acceptance. Dad feels he is better off applying to P and if doesn’t happen casting wide net, getting some acceptances and then exploring the best fit. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.
Does he have an affordable safety and other non-reach schools picked out?
Much 2 Learn- econ and philosophy- both liberal arts majors- are extremely rigorous and difficult at Princeton. I’m not sure what the basis of your comment is- but I know (and have hired) history, political science, and literature majors from Princeton whose workloads and academic standards are up there with the most rigorous majors elsewhere.
What is your basis for your comment bashing 3/4s of the academic departments at Princeton may I ask???
The two campuses have a similar feel. But at Duke there is more focus on sports, and our sense when researching schools was that it was a little more relaxed. We felt it was a very balanced place were the academics were great but the kids also have fun. Our tour guide at Duke was brilliant so that swayed us as well. One thing in particular that I didn’t like at Princeton was that you cannot double major. I know kids may not end up doing this anyway, but it just seemed more rigid, also with the junior paper and senior thesis requirements. Aside from ED though, it’s just as competitive to get in as Princeton. Good luck!
If you’re interested in how the math shakes out, here’s the stats for the most recent round of admissions.
Princeton
Applied SCEA: 3850
Admitted SCEA: 767 (19.9%)
Deferred SCEA: ~1925
Applied RD: 23,440
Total RD pool: 25,365
Admitted RD: 1141 (4.50%)
Duke-Trinity
Applied ED: 2508
Admitted ED: 653 (26.0%)
Deferred ED: ~480
Applied RD: 21,053
Total RD pool: 21,533
Admitted RD: 2137 (9.92%)
Any university with an admit rate below 15% or so can be pretty unpredictable; students on CC are always shocked in the spring to see someone get into Harvard but not Cornell. He should apply early to the one he likes better; trying to game the system is pointless here. He has a solid shot at Princeton with his stats and sibling bump, IMO.
@blossom “What is your basis for your comment bashing 3/4s of the academic departments at Princeton may I ask???” “majors from Princeton whose workloads and academic standards are up there with the most rigorous majors elsewhere.”
- I am not comparing them to students elsewhere.
- I have been told by students that the hard science, math, and engineering classes tend to be more time consuming and stressful than the liberal arts classes. I am sure there are exceptions. My point was to suggest that I would worry more about the difficultly difference between Duke and Princeton if he were majoring in Physics or Theoretical Mathematics, or engineering than if he were interested in humanities because the more scientific programs often even the best students are somewhat stressed out. Additionally, engineering students are required to take several more courses to graduate which tends to make engineering more difficult. It really was not intended to insult Princeton. Those differences exist at most schools.
Equating liberal arts with the humanities is a common misconception, but I agree with your basic premise that some majors will entail more work than others.
[“Liberal arts” is an umbrella term that includes math and the sciences (biology, chemistry, geology, etc.), the social sciences (anthropology, geography, psychology, etc.), and the humanities (philosophy, religion, literature, etc.). It usually includes the arts as well, though BFA programs are a different beast.](http://img02.deviantart.net/8020/i/2010/323/9/3/the_more_you_know_by_stathisnhx-d33639v.png)
Engineering is, of course, not under the liberal arts umbrella.
I meant to address this earlier. Princeton is uniformly awesome at pretty much everything it does, of course. Duke is similarly top 5 or 10 in several of the disciplines it offers (public policy, biology, religion, classics, environmental science, anthropology, English, etc.), so there’s little or no difference between the two. In some other disciplines – such as math, astronomy, and East Asian studies – Princeton has a noticeable edge; likewise, Duke has some strong majors that Princeton does not (e.g. statistics and dance). The answer to this largely depends on your son’s interests and career goals, but for most students there’s not too much difference.
The requirement of a senior thesis and the inability to double major (though many programs offer certificates) set Princeton apart. That may have more of an impact than any difference in academic heft, to which undergrads are frequently oblivious.
@warblersrule “He should apply early to the one he likes better”
I completely agree with this. It sounds like the student prefers Duke, but Dad is pushing for Princeton.
I understand parents pushing for the more challenging school in some cases, but I don’t think that there is a huge gap between Princeton and Duke is big enough that it would concern me. I might point out potential benefits of selecting Princeton, but in the end I would think it is more important that the student own the decision.
Some people like to talk about which major is more difficult and stressful, but they sometimes forget to consider that even with “an easier major”, when you are sitting in the same classroom with smart peers who are very good at the subject and your work is compared with theirs,the easier major can become difficult and stressful. While an engineering major in MIT is certainly not easy to tackle, history in Yale is not a walk in the park either. And I bet students in either class don’t want to sit in the other class.