<p>Okay Duke fans, please help me list the reasons my husband and I should scrape together the money to pay for our son to attend Duke over paying in-state tuition at UVa (Echols) or W&M (Monroe, possibly 1693 Scholar). I know it’s a great and higher-ranked school with wonderful students and excellent research opportunities (and sports!), but is it worth an extra $30,000 (plus) a year? I should mention that our son is not set on a specific major yet (talks about Econ but I don’t think he really knows), but is likely to continue into grad school and is a driven, intense student.</p>
<p>VaMomma, it’s good to hear from you again and thanks for your past PMs re Duke’s alumni interview process. I am delighted your son was admitted and offer him (and your family) my sincere congratulations (and my assistance, if you wish).</p>
<p>I suspect you may remember my deep and enduring connections with Duke and may correctly suspect that I hold the institution and its people in the highest esteem. Therefore, you might be slightly surprised at my answer to your question, one which is both an important and difficult one.</p>
<p>To begin, so much depends on your family’s circumstances that we don’t – and we absolutely should not – know: is Duke’s considerable additional cost “backbreaking” for your family, or simply a small financial stretch? Are there additional children? Is your son (and potentially his siblings) committed to professional and/or graduate school after his bachelors degree is completed? Are you concerned about potential financial help for patents and/or other family members? In essence, things of this sort could make Duke’s incremental costs (even including Financial Aid) simply too daunting; however, there are families (yours could be one) where they will not.</p>
<p>Next, UVa/Echols and W&M/Monroe-1693 are wonderful opportunities (and great accolades). Obviously, your son simply cannot err with any of his options – and that is a truly important point.</p>
<p>With this said, I want to make a case for Duke. My wife’s closest friend (and law school classmate’s) daughter was a recent Echols Scholar, and she flourished in Charlottesville. In addition, our son is a UVa alumnus (graduate school). Further, all of us in Northern Virginia certainly know many youngsters who have thrived – in every germane facet of the undergraduate experience – at UVa. But, in my opinion (and I’ve thought about this for several years), UVa is headed for several decades of real, fundamental difficulties. To be sure, it’s currently an outstanding institution, a “public Ivy,” and its reputation is excellent. However, what will its stature be in twenty or forty years – and that is clearly critical for your son.</p>
<p>UVa’s recent Sullivan-Dragas governance fiasco highlights some decisive long term problems that will be VERY difficult to resolve. I firmly believe that crisis wasn’t about personalities or oversight processes; at its core, it was about the University’s future and the policies/fiscal resources to achieve that vision.</p>
<p>UVa traditionally has received about 10 percent of its revenues from the Commonwealth’s taxpayers, but that number has precipitously declined in the last few years to approximately 4 percent. In addition, the University’s strong alumni base generally is not accustomed to providing MAJOR funding – they may believe it is a public responsibility – on a basis similar to private peer institutions. In fact, UVA’s most recent capital campaign was not fully successful (deadlines extended and objectives modified), which has not been the case for most of its peers.</p>
<p>I fear all this seems rather esoteric, but I’ll quickly return to your son’s lengthy future. The very best universities REQUIRE unbelievable financial resources to fulfill their missions. For example, as expensive as Duke may appear, EVERY student enrolled receives a $20 to $25K annual scholarship, because the actual costs of his education exceed full tuition (and all other fees) by that amount. I fear UVa is on the cusp of a pervasive, critical, and long term financial problem: (a) it will not receive the funding it needs from Commonwealth taxpayers (in aggregate, Virginia’s budgetary demands are simply too great); (b) large in-state tuition increases are not viable and greatly increasing non-Virginian enrollment is politically untenable; and © alumni donations do not reach the levels of private peer universities. Thus, this is virtually certain to necessitate substantial reductions in crucial resources, especially in faculty compensation (the fully burdened cost for top professors is VERY large, but they often are decisive in an institution’s reputation ). It is important to recognize that this potential decline (and it will be pervasive, encompassing much more than the faculty alone) will take many years to occur, but unless revenues increase (unlikely) or expenses decrease (even more so), in my opinion it is a distinct possibility for UVa during the next half century.</p>
<p>How could this adversely impact your son? In four years, when his resume reaches the hiring decision maker’s desk or his application for law school is evaluated by the Admissions Committee, both will surely say, “Great, Virginia is a truly fine university.” However, what happens when that resume is being evaluated in, perhaps, thirty years for a potential Federal judicial appointment or to join GE’s Board of Directors, and UVa’s financial issues have caused its reputation to decline during that rather lengthy period? Conversely, Duke’s trajectory continues to ascend rapidly, as it has for 45+ years. I am convinced this profound trend will continue, based upon numerous and frequent public – and private – recognitions of academic quality, selectivity, stature, and so forth.</p>
<p>Consequently, VaMomma, my “bottom line” is as simple as I believe it to be important: one does not select an undergraduate school only for its immediate academic and intellectual potential. Rather, one opts for a university for its ENDURING benefits. In a similar manner, we invest for the long-haul and we diligently analyze potential investments to select only those whose market prices are most likely to appreciate significantly over many years. I respectfully suggest a similar paradigm exists for higher education. In essence, I believe Duke is a very wise investment that will provide especially substantial long-term returns, whereas I am somewhat skeptical regarding UVa’s multi-decade efficacy. </p>
<p>Thanks TopTier - I hadn’t really considered the financial situations and trajectories of the two schools (except as they apply to our current savings accounts!). I appreciate the time you took to give such a thoughtful reply and we will definitely discuss this as a family. Thanks for your help!</p>
<p>@TopTier - Can you please elaborate on what you mean here: "as expensive as Duke may appear, EVERY student enrolled receives a $20 to $25K annual scholarship, because the actual costs of his education exceed full tuition (and all other fees) by that amount. "
I don’t have FA but in the running for AB Duke so would like to understand your statement. Thank you</p>
<p>@Confucious2014: I believe TopTier is speaking about the fact that Duke (and other top institutions) claim they spend about $90,000 per student. However, that claim is considered dubious accounting by some - never mind the fact that about 25% of that amount is towards financial aid which “full pay” students arguably do not directly realize benefit from. There was a good NPR piece about it recently:
<a href=“Duke: $60,000 A Year For College Is Actually A Discount : Planet Money : NPR”>Duke: $60,000 A Year For College Is Actually A Discount : Planet Money : NPR;
It was nice that Duke was transparent about where the money is going, at least. Very interesting topic.</p>
<p>@VaMomma: you are more than welcome. </p>
<p>@bluedog and Confucious2014: bluedog’s fundamental concept is correct, but I have actually computed the numbers and EVERY Duke student receives a $20 to $25K annual financial break, even those who pay all costs in full, with no scholarships, aid or grants (i.e., NPR is in error . . . and, with respect, so is bluedog).</p>
<p>My calculation (performed while I served on the Annual Fund Executive Committee, a few years ago) is simple:
a) Total University costs of operations (averaged over several years)
b) Subtract all expenses that are not directly student oriented (Duke Med other than student instruction, Clinical research, etc.)
c) Divide that total by the number of enrolled undergraduates plus graduate/professional school students (this provides average annual cost per student)
d) Finally, compare that figure to a weighted average of tuition plus all fees, calculated as if there were no financial assistance, grants, scholarships, etc. (this provides Duke’s average yearly income per student, treating aid of several sorts as a different type of payment)</p>
<p>This results in the expenses to educate an average Duke student for one year exceeding the revenues collected (c>d) from students being over $20 thousand more annually (probably somewhat greater currently, due to compounded inflation during the last few years).</p>
<p>Finally, the number I calculated was slightly over $23K, but I found it impossible to determine if some costs should be considered as “directly student oriented” or not. To illustrate, the Gardens are wonderful, but are they directly instructional and/or strident oriented? Therefore, I felt confident with a $20 to $25 thousand annual range, as opposed to a precise number. </p>
<p>With all this explained, the “bottom line” is straightforward: the annual expenses of educating the average Duke student exceed the revenues collected (calculated on a full-cost basis, with aid, grants, scholarship and so forth simply a different payment approach) by over $20K. Consequentially, if one were to pay all Duke costs in full from personal resources, he still would receive a de facto $20+K annual “scholarship.” </p>