<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=285601[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=285601</a></p>
<p>The above link is from the Caltech forum but I’d like to have some input from current Swat students, parents and alum on the Economics program at Swarthmore regarding the level of math realistically needed to be successful in the program.</p>
<p>Mom:</p>
<p>The best answer will come from having mom’s offspring e-mail the chair of the Econ department and ask…or to get the name of an Econ major and ask. These are the sorts of questions that someone considering Swarthmore would get answered during the accepted students weekend (lunch with professors, department open house, etc.)</p>
<p>Having said that, I think the following paragraph from the Econ department handbook probably answers the question (especially in light of the CalTech thread). I’ll break the paragraph up into three sentences:</p>
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<p>This is your basic freshman two-semester college calculus, although students with AP calculus usually can place out of the first semester. The very strongly recommends means that you’d be pretty much dead without this basic math course. However, this also suggests that it is possible to major in Economics with just this level of math.</p>
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<p>This is pretty much the first two years of a math major sequence. Without this level of math, an Econ major would have to pick and choose courses carefully, avoiding the more technical Econ courses. I’m guessing that it might be difficult to do the Honors program in Economics without these courses.</p>
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<p>Hardcore. Note that a higher percentage of all Swarthmore graduates get a PhD in Economics than at any other undergrad college or university in the country. So, there is certainly a strong element in the Econ department that requires hardcore math.</p>
<p>Note that all Econ majors have to take Intermediate Microeconomics and Statistics for Economists.</p>
<p>I think that a mathy or non-mathy student could find a suitable path through Swarthmore. In addition to producing Economics PhDs (mathy), Swarthmore is also the highest per graduate producer of Poli Sci PhDs and social science PhDs overall. There is a strong emphasis across many departments on contemporary policy issues of the sort that would appeal to a non mathy student. This includes a specific “Public Policy” major as well as offerings from the Poli Sci, History, and Sociology/Anthropology departments.</p>
<p>To be perfectly honest, I don’t think a student can make a decision about how “mathy” to be until they have taken at least the freshman college calculus sequence. For many students (even very strong high school math students), this is the first real exposure to “math without numbers”. Many students decide that “math without numbers” is not for them. Thinking about future courses, potential majors, and career paths becomes clearer at that point.</p>
<p>As a Swarthmore econ grad (economics major and math minor) who went on to grad school in economics, let me add my perspective. Quite a bit more math will be required when going on to grad school in economics than is required for an undergraduate major in economics. I remember the economics department chairman telling me that I might be better off majoring in math and minoring in economics when preparing for economics graduate school. I took multi-variate calculus, linear algebra, differential equations, probability and statistics and real analysis at Swarthmore, and all (except perhaps real analysis) were quite useful in graduate school. I still have my copy of Rudin’s Real Analysis book to remind me why I was not a math major.</p>
<p>For an undergradute major in economics who does not intend to go on to graduate school in economics much less math is necessary. As others have posted, however, much of economic theory will be more difficult to handle without calculus and linear algebra. Statistics is almost essential for any social science, and even more so for economics. For most undergraduate econ majors I would not think differential equations or real analysis would be necessary.</p>
<p>One of my sister’s friends is majoring in Economics. Once she had taken all the Math courses recommended for Econ majors, she was one math class away from a major’s worth, so she just decided to double-major. I think for most Econ majors Math is pretty integrated into the program.</p>
<p>While it seems theoretically possible to major in economics with Math 25 and Stats for Economists alone, will the peer group for such a student be small or will she have company? My daughter has completed first semester with Math 25 --taken pass/fail-- and hence with not as much effort as she’d have put into it if it was for a real grade and is not excited about continuing math classes but loves economics at least at the introductory level.</p>
<p>She can take 4 more classes pass/fail over next 5 semesters ;-). (But I think those can not be classes that are required for major)</p>
<p>mom:</p>
<p>OK, I checked with Swattie daughter. </p>
<p>She does not have any close Econ major friends, but her belief is that there would be plenty of non-mathy Econ majors and plenty of mathy Econ majors. Both tracks are viable types of Econ majors. Swarthmore has many students interested in policy/social science kinds of fields including public policy, Poli Sci, Soc/An, macro Econ, etc. The calc class and Statistics would be sufficient for most of these majors.</p>
<p>She recommends that your daughter talk to her adviser and/or go sit down and chit chat with a professor in the Econ department. My daughter’s experience (typical? I don’t know?) is that students can shoot straight with their advisors and professors and professors will shoot straight in return.</p>
<p>BTW, she also believes that students should trust their gut on college math after Math 25. There are many examples of students who breezed through high school calculus, got 5s on the AP test, and just aren’t wired for college math. The next course in sequence, Linear Algebra, is notoriously challenging for non-mathy types.</p>
<p>My son is the non-mathy econ major type and a junior (same year as Interestedad’s daughter). He has almost completed this major (2 courses next spring and he’s done) and he’s also majoring in Poli Sci. He has taken Stats and one other math class ( I have to check back with him what), that’s all. He has taken Science. But he is also not planning to get a Phd in Econ. So far he wants to pursue higher degree (Phd) in Poli Sci. But Interesteddad is right, there are non-mathy Econ majors at Swat.</p>
<p>Thanks all! nngmm, if she must take more math classes that’s what she’d probably do, though it might not be wise. interesteddad, a big thanks to your daughter for her perspective on this especially the wisdom of continuing on math track. My daughter’s math professor was encouraging her to continue taking higher level math classes but this girl wasn’t sure if that is how she wanted to spend her college years–taking classes that she couldn’t enjoy. Achat, thank you for the first-hand perspective on this issue–it’s much appreciated. Glad to know that non-math econ majors thrive at Swat.</p>
<p>great thread! i was just about to post the very same questions. thanks for all the info!</p>
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<p>Been there. Done that! My daughter reached the same conclusion after placing into the final semester of the calc track.</p>
<p>I know of other high school math whiz kids at other similar colleges that reached the same conclusion. I think it is very common. I think there’s just a different aptitude for math with numbers and math without numbers. Interestingly, my daughter took the advanced stat course and breezed through it. She has no problem learning math rules and solving problems. The proofs in math track courses did not compute.</p>
<p>She actually talked about it with her high school math teacher. The standard college calc book is a different approach to teaching math, an approach that is required for advanced theoretical math, but one that is very different from the AP calc approach that was a piece of cake for my daughter. </p>
<p>She was glad she took the calc course and the theory of special relativity physics seminar. Both gave her a good taste of potential math or physics major and, therefore, a solid basis for knowing that’s not what she wanted to do for the rest of her life!</p>
<p>She recommends that, if students are going to take college calc, take it first semester when it’s pass/fail. That’s a free pass to find out if it clicks.</p>
<p>One more question. Apparently Econ 11 (Micro theory) has three options–lite, medium, and cal-based. What are the advantages or disadvantages of picking lite or calc? It seems to me that doing calc-based would give stronger grounding in the basics for the other courses in the department. Since the tests and grades seem to be dependent on “Econ-lite” based class, doing calculus based Econ won’t hurt the grades but will allow students to learn it more in-depth. Am I wrong in this assessment?</p>
<p>I’m not an expert on the field of economics by any means, but it seems to me that economics degrees without a strong quantitative element are becoming more and more worthless as the years go on. Cutting-edge economics is dominated by quantitative analysis, and it is only a matter of time before that represents the entirety of the field. I think all but one of the Nobel prizes in economics since 2000 have been awarded for quantitative analysis of some stripe or another. Furthermore, employers are looking more and more for people with a strong mathematical background when hiring economics majors for competitive jobs in finance. I think that, these days, people who are interested in economics but who can’t get their heads around college level calculus, statistics, and related courses are better off looking elsewhere for a major, and perhaps restricting their economics studies to keeping it as a minor.</p>
<p>The ideal way to major in economics at Swarthmore would be to either double major in economics and mathematics and/or enroll in the honors program and take mathematics as a minor. That seems like the best way to prepare oneself for the realities and demands for jobs in finance or investment or for a future in academia or the professional world as an economist.</p>