ED1 Haverford or Vassar [NY resident, 3.9 GPA]

Chance Me / Match Me
1

After visiting a lot of colleges this summer, my daughter loves Haverford and Vassar and wants to choose one for ED1. Do you think she has a chance at either?

Demographics

  • Upstate NY resident from a low performing public school district
  • Not a recruited athlete or first gen or anything like that.

Cost Constraints / Budget
I have run NPCs for all the colleges on her list and these top two look manageable for our family’s finances. We are aware that Haverford is need aware and I’m concerned that might hurt her chances.

Intended Major(s)
Undecided but interested in anthropology, history, or art history. She was intrigued by the Cities major at Haverford via Bryn Mawr.

GPA, Rank, and Test Scores

  • Unweighted HS GPA: 3.9
  • Weighted HS GPA: 4.55
  • Class Rank: top 10%
  • ACT/SAT Scores: taking in August. For this exercise, imagine she’s not including scores.

HS coursework
My daughter does great in her classes, but as you can see not always as great on testing. She loved stats, was tops in her class, and will be TAing for stats next year. But the AP doesn’t show that.

  • English: AP Lang (5), AP Lit (senior year)
  • Math: AP stats (3), AP Pre-Calc (senior year)
  • Science: AP ES (3), AP Bio (4), AP Physics (senior year)
  • History and social studies: AP US history (5), AP World Hist (5), AP Micro Econ (senior year)
  • Language other than English: 4 years of French
  • Visual or performing arts: AP Art 2D (senior year), a film class, chorus
  • Other academic courses: AP Philosophy (senior year)

Awards
National Honor Society
Scholar-athlete award
RIT Art & Design Award
AP Scholar Award
Essay chosen for inclusion in her high school’s writing anthology

Extracurriculars
Circus arts for ~8 years. Mostly aerial arts including being in a troupe in which she choreographed pieces, helped design the production, and performed shows.

Theatre at her high school

Summer theatre group that performed shows for children ages 5-10 and for senior citizens. (The program was designed to bring free live theatre to people who may not be able to access it.)

Played varsity soccer one year

Involved some clubs in her HS: Gay-straight alliance, prom committee, theatre club.

Has a part-time job.

Other
Not sure if/where this might come up. She’s spent a considerable amount of her outside-of-school time helping a mobility limited relative with daily tasks and with home repair and maintenance. Much more than just chores.

There was one semester when she attended school remotely due to some family circumstances. (I prefer not to discuss the exact circumstances as they are private and were a temporary thing.) Her grades dipped during this period. Instead of all A’s, she got a B.

Remaining RD Schools List
This list is really long because we don’t actually have a great idea of what her chances are and are hoping she gets accepted at enough colleges that we can compare financial aid packages first, assuming she doesn’t get the ED school.

Targets, could go either way: Bryn Mawr (not sure she wants to go to an all women’s college), Dickinson, Connecticut College, Lafayette, Franklin and Marshall, U. of Rochester, Bucknell. Academically BMC is best fit of these, but might not be for her socially.

Likely: SUNY New Paltz, SUNY Geneseo, Hobart & William Smith, St. Lawrence

Reach: Tufts

If we’re missing colleges we should have included, please share.

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She definitely has a chance at either Haverford or Vassar, and I don’t think it’s possible to say which one is more likely. Admissions rates are very similar. She should choose whichever one she likes better. Surely she has a preference, even if it’s only for one geographic setting over the other.

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Thank you for the reassurance. She has a little time to choose. They are really closely tied at the moment. Maybe that will change before she has to choose. She loved Vassar’s campus (Who wouldn’t?) and the kind of artsy vibe. Lots of theatre even among non-theatre people. At Haverford, she liked the emphasis on student research, the small size, and the agency students seem to have. Maybe she should get in touch with students to learn more about their experiences?

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Based on your daughter’s current list, she might like Bates or Skidmore.

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Speaking to student ambassadors is a fantastic idea.

It’s awesome to love a campus, but you have to love being in the program too. And it could help to talk about her interests and personality and how she fits in.

Is your need at a full level?

177 of 373 first years were awarded grant aid at Haverford - it looks like $65K on average if I’m reading correctly. So perhaps full need could hurt but it does seem like they go deep - but also have a healthy full pay class.

Vassar is a big higher in percent getting need - 354 of 673 with an average of $61K.

Is Vassar’s percentage higher due to the need aware factor of Haverford? That’s unknown. Is your need that high? If it’s less, I would think it’s less likely to pull the need aware trigger, but I don’t know that for sure - just hypothesizing.

Test wise, it looks like 39% at Vassar submitted vs. at Haverford 54% - so might the test be more impactful at Haverford - so perhaps if the score ends up not measuring up, Vassar a safer bet? Again, just hypothesis.

ED wise 341 of 1019 at Vassar vs. 206 out of 622 at Vassar so a pretty similar percentage.

As far as odds, i mean they’re not great - right - but that’s for all. She has a great profile and certainly the circus arts will be a very interesting draw in my mind. And the helping a relative is an extra curricular and shows she is mature and responsible.

I like your overall list - but some of these do not assure to meet need - but hopefully are affordable anyway. It sounds like you’ve checked all this.

You are clearly focused on a narrow range geographically - but based on what others here have mentioned, would an Oberlin or St. Olaf for her creative side be worth a look or Wooster as a safety given her research bent?

And if worst case you have one of the two SUNYs - sounds like they’d be a fantastic fit too.

Best of luck.

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If it is possible, perhaps try to re-visit her two top choices in the fall when students are on campus. It may give her a better feel for the overall vibe of both schools.

She is a viable candidate for both colleges – congrats on her achievements to date. But as you know they are very competitive in terms of admissions. Since both appear affordable she should apply ED to her top choice. FWIW, I believe (but double check) that both Vassar and Haverford offer ED2 as well in case the ED application doesn’t work out.

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This is very helpful, albeit a bit disheartening. She may qualify for a pretty substantial external grant for tuition which could reduce need, but I’m not sure when I will know for certain. If I could find out I wonder if that might help. Edit: Our need is not full, but it’s pretty darn high.

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Wasn’t intending to be disheartening. Just data points.

I actually found it quite positive. These schools attract wealthy student bodies. But given they are gifting $60k plus on average to those they support, they are all willing to go deep on those they want.

Frankly, look at your student - creative, responsible, caring - anyone should want her.

All may not and if not, so what?

It’s their loss.

Most of us have kids that don’t get in somewhere. UNC, Rice - you missed out on my daughter who is trying to lead students in helping refugees.

She didn’t need them to be successful. Their loss is her school’s gain.

Yours doesn’t need Vassar or Haverford to be a success.

All that said, I provided data. I know I’m not considered Mr Positive but I don’t see anything disheartening in what I wrote.

Best of luck on the app process.

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Thank you for that. I didn’t mean you said anything disheartening, just that it was disheartening to see that the percentage of full-payers is so high. I appreciate your positive point of view even if you don’t think of yourself as Mr. Positive.

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Thank you. Yes, they both have ED I and II. She was thinking that she would make the second choice ED II if the first choice doesn’t work out.

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If you look at many of your schools, they are funded by wealthy full pay.

So yea they’ll have diversity but they’ll also have significant wealth. And kids leaving for a weekend on the cape or pricey ski trips. Or spring break.

But so what - if those are the schools she likes - she can give her best shot. And if not, every school on your list is putting out successful kids.

I got lucky that both my kids selected cheap safeties - they both fell in love upon visiting - the important thing is that your student does is visit and find schools at all levels of selectivity (and affordability) they can get giddy about.

Since you’re from NY, hopefully she’ll fall in love with Geneseo as a just in case - whether due to admittance or affordability.

In the end you can only choose one.

I do think your student needs to visit if possible and or talk to kids at all schools and check the campus and immediate surrounds because, for example, Bucknell and Tufts will be very different etc just like Haverford and Vassar are - and her reasons for liking were both different.

I don’t totally get your need profile but yes external grants will reduce need.

In the end, you’re only going to one no matter how many you get into. And you’ve done your homework cost wise. Many don’t so this will save you a lot of heartache later !! And for that I applaud you.

So seems to me you’ve done very well with maybe one critique - it sounds like your student may have the dream school phenomenon. Try to see if you can temper that. All schools have wonderful opportunities but all schools also have issues - bad dorms, food, profs, roomies, etc.

But your student does seem amazing and no matter how many want her (and multiple will), only one can get her - and if it’s not one of her two favored, oh well. And if it is and you can afford it, that’s wonderful too.

She will be the one that determines her future !!!

If you want to see more stats, I used common data set c21 for ED rates (don’t forget they’re inflated for hooked kids) and H2 for aid counts. Section C - the entirety - is a good read overall in my opinion.

Ok. Enough from me. Others will guide you as well.

Thanks for sharing your student’s profile. I wish her well.

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You’re absolutely right about the dream school phenomenon. I’ve been trying to take her to visit schools that are great, but don’t have the name recognition of her top choices. The pull of wanting to go to a “good” school is real. I’ve talked with friends who’ve had kids go to top schools and lesser known ones. Their kids’ experiences really varied. One said his child, who attended a less popular LAC on our list had a fantastic education. Lots of research and leadership opportunities, involved professors, good career services and alumni networks, etc. They said that some of ways that LAC did things were better than at the top one that their other child attended. But this was also during covid… Anyway, I’m trying to help her understand that the rankings don’t mean as much as she might think.

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I attended Vassar and was an alumni interviewer for more than a decade. Your daughter looks like an excellent candidate and hopefully her enthusiasm comes through in her application.

While ED is the ultimate form of demonstrated interest, the AOs at Vassar tend to focus on community fit. It can be a quirky school and the applications are reviewed juxtaposed against that uniqueness. She should focus on conveying what specifically about VC she loves and how she will take advantage of its resources, opportunities and culture.

Happy to answer questions or help.

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Thank you so much! I’ve encouraged her to connect with student ambassadors so she can find out more about the culture. Fortunately, we visited before classes were out in the spring and she got to see it with students on campus. Our tour guide, who seemed quirky but down to earth, really sold it. We might have just gotten lucky with our tour guide, but it felt like there was a strong performing arts element to the extra-curriculars.

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Parent of a recent Haverford grad, and I was surprised at how many “via BMC” diplomas there were. It’s not common… but it’s not rare.

Our Ford was an English major, and took at least 1 class every semester at BMC. Added bonus… eating at BMC is much better than the food at Haverford (a constant source of frustration… HC is OK, but BMC is very good).

BMC is a “women’s college”, but there will be men in most likely all of her classes there. There will be guys in the dining hall, and in the library.

As for the social scene… it’s a Venn diagram with half in the middle. There are students at both BMC and HC that socialize primarily on the other campus. There is also a bit of social interaction with Swarthmore for students of both schools.

Regarding the Cities major, it’s worth noting that there is a 3/2… BMC/Penn for City and Regional Planning. I am generally negative on 3/2 programs, but one at Penn is so close to HC/BMC that it would be very interesting (your daughter could still socialize with friends senior year, even though she’d be at Penn). I recently attended a presentation by the curator of Penn’s architectural archives about the “Philly area since the 1950s”…and it was really interesting. Amazing resources at Penn.

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Thank you for this perspective.

One of the only reasons she would consider BMC is because of the close connection to Haverford. Good to know about the social scene.

I haven’t given the 3/2 a lot of thought, so I appreciate what you said. She would love the architectural archives.

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Won’t comment on her chances or the schools, although Vassar might have been on our list to visit as a reach a few years ago if not for the height of the pandemic curtailing most travel for us.

Do want to say that your daughter’s experience helping the relative could make a fantastic essay as long as she’s careful in her approach. To make it somehow (of course,) not “look-at-how-self-sacrificing I am,” but another approach. Could be many things. I almost suggested a couple of ways to look at it but then stopped myself, as your daughter needs the satisfaction of coming up with that herself! Oops!

Also, any essay tying her circus arts experiences with the greater sense of herself and what she will do (in any field) in the future….creativity, joy, humor, camaraderie, bravery, discipline, pushing the envelope…would be fascinating. Great reading for admissions staff who have heard it all. This activity is a unique feather in her cap.

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I’ve been an alumni interviewer for Haverford for many years. I am always surprised by how many applicants don’t mention the Honor Code until I ask them about it. The Honor Code is a big part of life at Haverford and goes beyond unproctored, self-scheduled final exams. I would encourage her to learn about “the Code,” and to talk to student fellows who share her academic and extracurricular interests.

I’m a fan of both schools, but if theater is a key interest, she’ll find a more robust scene at Vassar.

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Oh that’s interesting. She was drawn to the honor code based on what the tour guide said. She said it’s the opposite of how her public high school treats the students. She also came home from work the other day with a notepad of thoughts for the supplemental questions, even though she knows they could change. She had written an answer to the honor code question because she was thinking about it during downtime on her shift. It’s actually really nice to see her so excited about colleges. She’s been very resistant to thinking about it. Leaving home is big and scary. To see her take the initiative like that has been really nice.

Edited a typo.

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I would be surprised if Haverford got rid of an essay question about the Honor Code. I’m impressed that she’s already given it so much consideration. I went to a high school that was very academically competitive and many students cheated. One of the things that attracted me to Haverford was the Honor Code being more than just a document, but a fundamental value of the community.

I would echo others’ suggestion of Bates. I thought it had a similar vibe to Haverford and Vassar, plus their newish president is a Haverford alum who seems to be a big hit with the students and faculty. Another school that might be a good target would be Connecticut College. They also have an honor code and a warm vibe.

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