<p>[Educating</a> our ‘Customers’ - Do Your Job Better - The Chronicle of Higher Education](<a href=“http://chronicle.com/article/Educating-our-Customers/126916/]Educating”>http://chronicle.com/article/Educating-our-Customers/126916/)</p>
<p>Interesting article. As we have seen by other threads and posts here, it seems to be a universal issue.</p>
<p>As is often the case, responses to the article provide better insight than the article itself. Below is one response to the (silly) notion that students are “education customers” … and if a “customer” wants his Calculus lecture delivered in iambic pentameter, then the professor is OBLIGATED to do that.</p>
<p>“Students are not our customers; society is the customer. Students are the product, and we owe society our best efforts in providing them with a quality product.”</p>
<p>It was an interesting read. I can see both sides. I had a class once where someones cell phone went off. The prof walked over asked him for his phone… the guy gave it to him very hesitantly… and our prof answered it as “so and so’s teacher, may I take a message?” That was the last time ANYONE had a cell phone go off during that class. </p>
<p>However… I do think people learn in different ways and teachers should be aware of that. If you put up a power point every day and just spend the class reading from it, that may not be a very effective way of learning for everyone. </p>
<p>I’m GREAT at math… but when I took Accounting I got a D in it. I knew exactly what I was doing and could balance anything you asked me to… but yet I got a D. The way that the guy did our tests just didn’t click with me… everything was multiple choice and while I am a very good, quick reader, reading comprehension sometimes flips on and off in my head… I did AWFUL in his course. He’d give a question asking for a definition or something with four options as an answer with just one word interchanged in each of them and I’d always pick the wrong one. I wound up re-taking the course with another prof and I got a 98 in it. Her tests were all practical - here’s the balance sheet, figure out the blah blah blah blah. I knew exactly what I was doing but being able to pick out the correct definition where they are almost identical with one small word missing or interchanged really isn’t testing what I know… it’s testing my ability to be tricked (IMO). Give me an essay test any day of the week over a multiple guess test and I’ll nail every answer for you. I wish I would have had the guts to tell him that his testing method really wasn’t testing his students knowledge rather then just making us feel dumb… almost half my class wound up either dropping it or having to re-take it.</p>
<p>I also had a prof once in an art class assign us a project over Easter break. We went into class the day before break to hand in our last project which we had been working on for several weeks and she decided to assign another one and she told us it was due the day we came back. I was NOT a happy camper. We had about five or six days to complete it. I had just landed a summer internship and I was going to be doing orientation/training pretty much each day during my easter break as well as babysitting my younger cousin each day after work as well. Needless to say, I got the project done because I had to… but I was up almost all night every night working on it and I really disliked how it came out. When my prof asked me why my project didn’t seem to be up to my normal standards it took all I had not to tell her off. I told her that I worked full time during my break as well as looked after a 6 year old and that finding time to work in this project was rough and that I felt very rushed but wanted to make sure I had something finished to hand in. That might have been a fine assignment for someone with absolutely no plans over break and for someone who can spend every waking minute on their art project… but for me it wasn’t feasible. If I had known I’d have a big project to do, I wouldn’t have told them I could be at orientation as well as training each day from 9-5 and I wouldn’t have taken on baby sitting a 6 year old each evening while her mother worked till 8… Obviously at work in the real world projects come up all the time but that one was just a bit over the top for me.</p>
<p>fendergirl - I’ve had some terrible professors … in fact, I had one that took a question straight out of the textbook and marked the textbook answer “Wrong!” And I’ve had some terrible bosses at work … including one who insisted that outright fraud was OK (and keeping a paramour was OK, and throwing subordinates’ work product out while they were on vacation was OK, etc., etc., etc.). Still, this is all old news, isn’t it?</p>
<p>The accounting and art class stories are perhaps more germane. Regarding the former experience, I’m sure you’d have done a better job than the Enron accountants who regularly gave the company a clean bill-of-health. And regarding the latter, I’m sure the experience made you more sensitive to timeframe when assigning creative work. (The equivalent operant in my line of work is “Fast, good, cheap … pick any two.”) </p>
<p>I’m not suggesting that your accounting and art profs should be lauded for their teaching methods … I’m just saying that there can be only one “captain of the classroom” and it can’t be the kid in seat C14.</p>
<p>I don’t think the issue here is that students see themselves as customers, it’s that people don’t like rules that don’t seem to have any justification. Now in some cases his students are obviously being immature, but in others, I think he’s being somewhat unfair. </p>
<p>For example, unless there are assignments completed in class, I don’t think there should be strict attendance policies. If someone wants lecture notes for classes they didn’t bother to attend, by all means refuse, but if someone can learn the material without showing up for class, more power to them. Similarly, papers really should be returned to students in a timely manner. The teacher should be giving feedback on those papers, and that feedback is often the best way to improve on the next paper. It’s also often important to find out grades before drop deadlines.</p>
<p>^ Just a minor point: Professors don’t have strict attendance policies to punish ‘A’ students. They have strict attendance policies because blowing off class leads to blowing off assignments … which leads to poor performance on tests, etcetera.</p>
<p>That’s certainly not the intention, but it can often be the effect. I think a lot of professors have an idea that there are certain things that students <em>need</em> to do to succeed in their class, and for students that really don’t need to do those things it can be interpreted as babying.</p>
<p>^ Granted. But lets give Profs some props too … a number of my Professors had the policy of letting ‘A’ students skip the final.</p>
<p>I had a whole paragraph I was going to write about this but then I read " but if someone can learn the material without showing up for class, more power to them" and now I am almost speechless so instead I will rant. If they can learn without going to class then why not just stay home take your degree online and save your parents a bucket load of money on room and board. Oh and by the way don’t apply for a job with me because I believe that attendance at work is critical just I believe you learn respect and responsibility through your life experiences at school. If attendance at class is not important because you may be bored then why show up to work if you might be bored. Sure, work you get paid to be there but school YOU pay for. An analogy for that is bring your car in have the brakes done and find out that the mechanic decided to do only one because he/she got bored and decided that was enough for the day. I know that some professors are unreasonable and that needs to be addressed but giving the student carte blanche to make their own decisions on attendance and assignments doesn’t cut it either. The one thing I really disagree with is that even though I am paying the tuition, room and board and most expenses I have no say and they wont even talk to me without my D giving them written permission. We overheard a student the other day at my D’s college telling a friend that he wasn’t sure how he was going to tell his parents that he is on academic probation because he has a 0 GPA in one class and a .4 in another. I wanted to ask him how on earth do you get a 0 GPA. I am sorry for the rant.</p>
<p>Rant away. I totally agree with you. It’s a whole new priviliged society out there where students decide what they want to do. I know parents who let kids skip high school when they feel like it. Why should they have to go if they are doing well? Because it’s a work ethic learned while still young. There are days I don’t feel like going to work, but I go.</p>
<p>The article was interesting and I agree that a lot of this stems from kids feeling a sense of entitlement. The one student point that I agree with is getting assignments back to students in a timely manner. I am not necessarily suggesting a 48 hr turnaround, but some reasonable timeframe. My son has had professors who have not returned papers, work packets(whatever they are called for engineering classes) or posted test grades. I think this is very unfair to students. They do not get the feedback they need to do well in the course nor the information they need to make a decision regarding dropping the course within the designated period. My son had one professor who purposely did not post the midterm grades until after the last day to withdraw because he had too many kids drop his class in the previous semesters. And he had the
gall to tell the students this! To me, this guy needs to do a better job
to improve his retention rate, not penalize the students for his shortcomings. With one course at some private schools costing upwards
of $5000, I do think that students deserve to have professors that
respect their need to have materials returned in a timely manner.</p>
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<p>Because the ability to learn the material without attending lecture in one class doesn’t imply the ability to learn the material in all classes without attending lecture. And there are numerous benefits to attending a non-online college that go beyond the time spent sitting in class.</p>
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<p>I’m sure it is, unlike sitting in some lectures.</p>
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<p>Is this still a response to my comment? Notice that I said nothing about boredom and that the part where the mechanic didn’t actually finish the work is the exact opposite of the situation I’m talking about.</p>
<p>^ By choosing the word “boredom” PercussionDad was being kind IMHO. The next best explanation might be “waste of my time” which might also be attributed to say, waiting in line to vote. On down the line might be things like disrespect for Professors (for wasting THEIR time), disrespect for classmates (you know, the dumba**es who need to attend class in order to pass tests), and the people who are paying for college.</p>
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I am very happy to learn this. When my son’s next tuition bill comes, I will forward it to “Society” for payment. Anybody got the forwarding address?</p>
<p>Oh Hunt, you agent provocateur you.</p>
<p>All I have to say is that if students are truly customers, that colleges have a HUGE problem with uninformed consumers! (But I do agree with you that parents are certainly customers … customer’s who typically get pi**ed when they hear their beloved offspring are blowing off classes.)</p>
<p>I do think that college students (and their parents) are customers, to some extent, and that colleges do sometimes forget that. Perhaps an analogy might be a fancy restaurant. The restaurant has rules (a dress code, no substitutions, everybody at the table must order the tasting menu, etc.), and I understand that. I don’t think that my willingness to pay for a meal entitles me to come in wearing a dirty T-shirt. But on the other hand, I do expect good service, good food, and reasonable attention to my reasonable requests and individual needs.</p>
<p>“Hey, waiter dude, my Dad is paying for this expensive meal … get over here! Did I, or did I not say I wanted ketchup on my Veal Marsala? What is wrong with your Chef today?”</p>
<p>On the other hand: “Sir, the chef’s vision for this salad requires the sprinkling of walnuts. If you are allergic, perhaps you could enjoy the salad visually.”</p>
<h1>12 You are right that the ability to learn without attending in one class may not work for another class. That is exactly the attitude that I consider insulting to all students and faculty. My D is in her 4th semestre (Sophomore) and in total has missed 2 classes due to sickness and 1 day due to school activities and has not had less than 24 credit hours each semestre and is holding a 3.94 GPA. There are some classes that she is bored silly in but she still goes because as she has said she learns alot from the interaction in the class. Many points may not be brought up by the prof but students questions and conversations are often very enlightening. She did miss one class first thing in the morning because her alarm did not work (or wasnt set) after a late night of studying. When she did wake up she ran to the class, apologized and explained to the Prof what had happened, he looked at her and laughed telling her that he has never had a student chase him down to explain missing a class because she felt guilty. He also told her that with her grades it was not a problem and he even marked her as present. She has learnt early that respect both ways is earned and is not a right. She respected him and it has been reciprocated.</h1>
<p>I fail to understand why attendance to lectures is not critical. As I just said it is not always the lecture content that you learn from but the interaction. In my opinion the student who decides to not go because he learns well without attending is irresponsible and lacking of respect for fellow classmates and the Prof, doesnt care about other opinions, points of view or maybe even helping other students who may not be as adept in the course as they are.</p>
<p>My analogy of the mechanic is not in response to your comment but it is the attitude of many students today who believe they do not have to do things if they do not feel like it and then wonder why other students or Prof have little respect for them. Maybe I am from the really old school (graduated in 73) but D agrees that if we are paying for this then we owe it to ourselves (and parents who are paying) to attend and get everything we can from it.
I will not defend the Prof who is unresonable with returning assignments and such but my D has not encountered that yet. College is the training ground for the work force and the sooner students realize that the better. </p>
<p>I am still hoping someone can explain how someone gets a 0 GPA. Must be by not going to any classes, not handing in any assignments. That boggles my mind, what did he expect. More puzzling though is the .4 GPA in another class, HOW is that done.</p>
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I think it’s essential to go to the lectures; otherwise, you’d have to do the reading.</p>