Educational Yin and Yang

Parent Cafe
1

<p>Two evergreen thread topics around can be reduced to:</p>

<li><p>Public schools are the only way to educate students in K-12. We should ban private schools and force all their students into public schools to enrich the educational level of kids whose parents cannot afford private school. </p></li>
<li><p>American education in K-12 is awful, and the Indians and Chinese are going to out-educate the US into irrelevance.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>For those who believe both of these hypotheses, how can you reconcile a dogged devotion to a 150-year-old educational model in #1, with clear proof of its failure in #2?</p>

<p>A related question is how come we revere the messy, anarchic, non-standardized US system of post-secondary education with Point #1 above? Why doesn’t the virtually unregulated post-secondary education industry produce the same poor results as in point #2?</p>

<p>This isn’t really an argument in disguise. The failure of the public schools seems so manifestly obvious to me that I really don’t understand the argument against trying something new.</p>

2

<p>“The” public schools are not failing. There are great public schools all around the country.</p>

<p>I, for one, don’t believe either of your hypotheses, nor do I think that the supposed “failure” of public schools is “manifestly obvious.”</p>

3

<p>Colleges are free to try whatever they feel will work, with relatively little supervision – at least certainly nothing close to the level of scrutiny and misguided accountability to which K-12 public schools are subjected.</p>

4

<p>i’ve never heard anyone advocate #1</p>

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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059812849-post37.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/1059812849-post37.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

6

<p>Both hypotheses are straw men. A hybrid of public-private educational opportunities and consumer choice has been and is the way to go.</p>

7

<p>And you can’t compare a system (college) that takes the top 25% of students with a system that is mandated to educate 100% of whoever walks through the door.</p>

8

<p>I have never seen a thread that remotely resembles topic #1.* Topic #2 is, indeed, evergreen. The other related evergreen topic is, essentially, “Public school teachers are failing boys by trying to force them to act like girls , Indians, and Chinese (i.e., cooperate, sit still, pay attention, care about presentation).”</p>

<p>Anyway, who the hell here wants to ban private schools? People here worship private schools. I took my kids out of a private school for a variety of reasons, and sent them to a public school, and I think private schools are dandy.</p>

<p>I also agree with Consolation that there are great public schools all around the country. My kids’ public school was, at the very least, educationally comparable to their former, quite famous private school. The ceiling for public schools has risen amazingly during my adulthood. Apart from the famous old-line suburban public schools around here, there are 5 or 6 suburban high schools nearby that didn’t even exist 20 years ago and that provide really excellent opportunities to their students. That’s a big part of why it’s so darn hard to get into Harvard. Hundreds of thousands of public school kids are getting educations comparable to what you might have had to go to Brearley or Exeter a generation ago to get. And those schools pay their teachers more than Brearley or Exeter do (I think), which doesn’t mean they are better, of course, but sure doesn’t mean they are any worse.</p>

<p>The public school system AND the private school system work pretty well for affluent students and ambitious, talented, focused students. Neither system does such a great job for those at economic or social risk.</p>

<p>As for your last point: First, I think most of us – speaking without authorization for the liberals here, of whom I am one – believe that markets work better than planning. Second, the accumulated capital – plant and endowment – of American post-secondary institutions is truly astounding in historical terms. They are amazing enterprises. (I attended a lecture a few months ago which included the following throw-away line: “For most of its history, the Roman Empire was run by a corps of administrators and officials somewhat less numerous than that of the University of Michigan.”)</p>

<p>Also, neither the post-secondary institutions, nor the private schools, attempt universal education. For the most part, they are dealing with students who are already successful, to one degree or another, or who at least are motivated to learn. If not, they leave, or don’t show up in the first place, and no one judges the schools a failure because of that.</p>

<p>*The GC thread wasn’t anything like that. No one was talking about banning private schools. There was merely some resentment at the fat kid with the big box of crayons wanting to take some crayons out of the little box you were sharing with your friends, because he wanted his share of ALL the crayons.</p>

9

<p>It’s not a strawman argument, but it might be a somewhat-tortured way to get into the discussion. </p>

<p>Your second point is interesting. A LOT more than 25% of Americans have attended college. Here in Washington we have everything from 2-year technical colleges to the University of Washington, Evergreen State College, and Whitman. No single institution of higher education attempts to be all the things to all people the way K-12 schools do. In my kids’ district, they are all about academic college preparation. Heaven help a kid who wants to fix trucks, install plumbing, raise cattle, or cut shingles. They are shuffled off to the side and ignored while educator energy gets focused onto passing the WASL test and fulfilling legal obligations to special-needs kids. I don’t have anything in particular against academic prep or special needs, it’s just that I believe it’s a fantasy to think any single system is going to be successful with so many different goals.</p>

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<p>[USATODAY.com</a> - Report: Greater percentage of Americans educated](<a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2002-06-05-education-census.htm]USATODAY.com”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2002-06-05-education-census.htm)</p>

<p>The figures are from 2002, but I don’t have time to search out current ones. </p>

<p>I agree there needs to be a lot more vocational colleges; if government won’t fund them then why isn’t private industry stepping in to help the market out?</p>

11

<p>If you drop your age cutoff to 18+ the numbers get higher. According to the US Census, about 99,000,000 Americans have attended college. Not all of them, of course, have graduated. This is about half of adults. (Forty-two million who have some college, but no degree, combined with about 39 million with a bachelor’s and 18 million with an associate’s.) [Educational</a> Attainment in the United States: 2007 Detailed Tables](<a href=“http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2007.html]Educational”>http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/education/cps2007.html) </p>

<p>Of course, if you include children in the population, only about a third of Americans have attended college.</p>

12

<p>I agree with JHS. I live in an area that has massive numbers of prestitious private schools but our high school (48% on F/R lunch) does not do badly in the college sweepstakes. Granted that those who do well are often children of professionals (professors, lawyers, doctors), I’ve looked at the curricula and talked to teachers and have been sufficiently impressed not to feel the need to send my kids to private schools. And of course, the Boston suburbs are home to some top flight public high schools.
It’s not a matter of public vs. private.</p>

<p>I am strongly of the opinion that the American middle school curriculum is incredibly weak. I compare it not to the Indian or Chinese educational system, but to the French curriculum I had. I don’t know if the Chinese of Indian curricula are better. What is important to remember is that there are lots more Chinese and Indians than there are Americans, and so if even a tiny fraction of their population is as well or better educated than most Americans, they will dominate numerically. That is the challenge we face. Sheer numbers.</p>

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<p>^^ as a middle school teacher I have to disagree with you that the curriculum is weak, at least here in California where our curriculum standards are designed to prepare every student to enter a University of California campus. I think what is weak is the desire of students to strive to learn the difficult curriculum. The French and Chinese have mandated tests before high school that determine a student’s educational fate/opportunities and the parents and children take these very seriously. We have no such thing and as middle school teachers we are required to pass our students along from grade to grade even if they sit in the classroom and do absolutely nothing! One-third of the students in our school have several F’s on their report cards (in core subjects) year after year, and yet they are never retained. There is no consequence that is enforceable (voluntary after school tutoring? voluntary placement into extra reading or math instead of an elective? the parents think school is too hard for their kids as it is…) until high school. By then it’s very difficult to jump on the learning train and make up for bad habits or unlearned concepts. The desire is sorely lacking in much of our society.</p>

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<p>I’ve thought for a long time that we need more excellent vocational training and education. Not every kid is going to want to participate in the “knowledge worker” economy. Yet they still have a need to make a living, to be participatory citizens, to be life long learners, to enjoy the arts. Currently, too many kids who could be great performers in a vocationally-oriented context are scraping along in an academically-oriented one, feeling like failures or close to it, and prevented from exploring what they would really find satisfaction doing.</p>

<p>Yet I cringe at the many systems where kids are slotted into university or vocational tracks at the age of 11, never to be able to change. The ability to bestow second and third and even fourth chances is one of the great strengths of our system.</p>

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<p>Washdad, you are right and I’m wrong about the number of high school grads going to college, according to this:</p>

<p>“Currently, almost 9-in-10 young adults graduate from high school and about 6-in-10 high school seniors go on to college the following year.”</p>

<p>[Higher</a> Education Results in Higher Lifetime Income](<a href=“http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aa072602a.htm]Higher”>Lifetime Earnings Soar with Education)</p>

<p>I’m assuming they are defining “college” as any post-secondary educational institution. I think in California the numbers are significantly lower, but the above is perhaps more reflective of where you live.</p>

<p>I agree with you Consolation about the third and fourth chances… that’s one of America’s best qualities… just makes it really hard to teach 8th graders who aren’t motivated to learn. Later on the lightbulb must go on because if the numbers above are correct, 60% of them enter college.</p>

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<p>Momof2inca:</p>

<p>And I disagree with you. You conflate students, teachers and curricula. I addressed the curriculum and had nothing to say about students or teachers.<br>
So here is my experience in the French educational system:
All sixth graders began studying a foreign language. In my case, I added Latin since I was in the Classics track.
All 8th graders study a second foreign language. In my case, I added Ancient Greek. Those in the sciences or math track usually added German, or Italian or Spanish.
From sixth grade onward, all students study algebra then algebra. That is a goal that still elude American schools and opposition to mandatory algebra in 8th geade is strongest is CA (students are too immature is one common argument I’ve read). All French 12th graders are exposed to calculus, the amount depending on the track they’re in (less for those in languages and literature, more for those in math/science). Beginning in sixth grade and throughout the rest of k-12, all students study biology, chemistry and physics every year. All students study literature, history every year. I won’t describe the curriculum my kids followed. It is quite standard and does not compare favorably with the one I had.</p>

<p>But my main point is that by virtue of sheer numbers, the US is not in a good position. Getting into HYPSM is child’s play compared to getting into ITT or Beida. And think about it: even if only 1% of the student population of India and China master their very tough curriculum, this represents about 4-5millions students. Meanwhile, 60% of US students attending college represents what: 100,000 students?</p>

17

<p>You’re right I’m mixing other variables into the problem. I agree with you that the French curriculum is superior, and I experienced it offhand when I attended a French university while an exchange student in college. The French students seemed to have a far deeper understanding of the classics, of their own history, geography, etc… than I did. </p>

<p>Since my days in middle school in California, however, the curriculum has become much tougher. The standard 6th grade math curriculum has many algebra concepts and as I’ve written elsewhere on CC, the essay requirements are much tougher as well. </p>

<p>But when a third or more of the students are failing, with no consequences, I don’t think the answer for most students is to make the curriculum harder, which is what I thought you were suggesting is the problem with the public school system. Perhaps I misunderstood your point.</p>

18

<p>Something goes dreadfully wrong in middle school. In every elementary school in our town 80-90% of kids pass grade level tests. The number drops precipitously in middle school. Either the tests are too hard, or for some reason many kids are getting lost. I wish I knew what the solution was.</p>

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<p>momof2inca:</p>

<p>My nieces have been coming to visit us periodically, so we have a chance to compare what they study with what my own kids are studying (they’re more or less the same age). Since my days, a middle school has been introduced so that French kids no longer start high school in 6th grade as I did. And I’m told that the middle school is the weak link in the educational system. But my nieces’ curriculum still compares favorably with what my kids had in middle school.</p>

<p>The problem is that even if most Chinese or Indians do not reach college, drop out before 9th grade or whatever, there are still enough who do manage to attend college to pose a huge challenge for us from sheer numerical superiority. Obviously, we need to try to educate all students and the way to do so is not to make the curriculum harder. But we need to be aware of the international context in which we operate.</p>

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<p>I agree, marite. I had the opportunity to go see Charlie Rose from 60 mins. and PBS last night and he talked about the belief of many experts that the 19th century belonged to Britain, the 20th to America and the 21st possibly will belong to Asia, including China and India. We may just have to learn to share resources, economies and power.</p>