<p>“Just how is it the responsibility of America’s private colleges to address all of the unfairness that’s been handed out to every 18 year old?”</p>
<p>AMEN. Few people EVER address this.</p>
<p>"I get more irritated by the horrendous mess of our public educational system (K-12 plus U.) than I do about the alleged inequities in the private system. "</p>
<p>Couldn’t agree more.</p>
<p>I m just irritatted I guess. Our EFC is about 1/4 of our income, same as some others on the board. However when your income is $40,000 IMO $10,000 is much more of a hit than $25,000 to a familiy that makes $100,000. Basic expenses can’t usually be pared down much, when they already are pretty pared down.
I realize that this is a college board and so the posters are pretty much self selected but when I see kids who aren’t even getting a fair shake at life, let alone at college, I am indignant for them.
The latest example is a 17 yr old girl who has been in theraputic foster care for several years, she finally has been pronounced healthy enough to be placed in a regular foster care home. a neighbor who has several foster kids including teens was interested in her. She was placed in their home and after several months it appeared that it was a good fit and there was evidence that she started to believe in herself, our neighbor bonded with her and was looking forward to helping her enter adulthood.
Unfortunately the powers that be decided that since she would be turning 18 in a year, it would be cheaper for the state to have her in group care so they pulled her from the foster home . ITs very sad, here the girl had a chance of getting to know an adult in a family setting as opposed to being warehoused till she hits 18. She will be lucky to finish high school let alone have post high school opportunities</p>
<p>I also agree that urban schools spend more on each student. It apparently is because they are providing more services. More special education, more ESL - our district has 90 different languages I think, more transportation. Our state pays less now for education ( per student) than they did 30 years ago, but the costs are higher and the problems more complex.
If we took even a portion of what we are spending on institutional programs ( prisons) and spent it on education, perhaps we wouldn’t need so many prisons?</p>
<p>Please don’t think that I advocate pumping money into ECs to plump up a college app in the future. The thought never occurred to me in those years when I was pursuing all of the freebies a city/college neighborhood provided for me. But I can tell you that for most families there comes a point when those ECs start costing money. I know that our single biggest expense is tuition and child related ECs. It would be a sad day, indeed when kids activities were charted solely for elite college admissions. I have heard that this actually has become a factor these days in some circles, but I stll have little ones in the lower grades, and though I do hear more college talk from parents with kids at a younger age, I’ve yet to see anyone grooming their kids activities with an eye that way. Most of us want our kids to learn a little about everything, and if an activity strikes a chord we run with it. My one son loves chess and is quite good at it. Another loves skating and is not good at it, but we spend more time at the rink than we would because it’s something he enjoys doing. I am not particularly comfortable with the scout group we have joined, but the little one loves the activities, and this is not about me. And most of my kids have done scouts actively, but none of them continued once they went into highschool. Sure the Eagle rank would have been nice, but that was not the reason why joined scouts. Nearly all the kids here take piano lessons, and I can tell you that it is not anything that will help you get into college unless the music field is the direction, and even then it is not an essential. They are taking it to get a taste and appreciation of doing music. </p>
<p>I can tell you as a participant of every free program I could find (and the inexpensive stuff), that there comes a point when you do need to move up the scale if the kid is to move on, and it can still get expensive. I was pinching every penny twice those days, lived in a student ghetto, kids wore only gifts and castoffs, used cars, and it is not easy paying for the activities especially if they are good. We got a lot of financial and “scholarships” but you really can’t keep on that way. You do have to pay, and it is a burden. Even the discounted private lessons added up. Though some of our kids did parlay their ECs into college hooks, most of them did not. But they are the gifts we provided for them, and are much appreciated.</p>
<p>In New Jersey, thirty very low income/low performing school districts (the socalled “abbott districts”) are guaranteed to be funded at the same level as the highest funded districts in the state. These thirty include all the cities, such as Newark, Paterson, Camden, Jersey City, etc. According to the local paper, at present, they’re receiving approx 18,000/child. I don’t begrudge this, except as Newmassdad says, the increased money doesn’t seem to be filtering to the instruction level of the students; performance hasn’t changed–it makes you wonder where the money is going. In comparison, my town, which borders some of these districts and has the same expenses (teacher salaries and expenses are comparatively higher in NJ than othe parts of the country), and much the same demographic (our HS is over half minority, many students low income, etc), yet our per/pupil allotments are half the abbott districts, truly frustrating. We need a way to equalize expenditures, and have better oversight on their use.</p>
<p>Jamimom, you’re upbringing of all your kids and neices/nephews is a wonder–I didn’t mean it to sound like criticism of you!</p>
<p>but I do feel that funding of lessons, special programs, is a choice that a lot of people don’t have, and if paying for these things means less money for college, then sometimes one or the other is going to be compromised–I guess I don’t believe the student aid system can afford to supplement people who have to make choices and don’t have money for all the special stuff plus expensive colleges.</p>
<p>It’s definitely a choice thing–we could not have afforded all the special stuff and also put away money for college --heck, we were living in a four room apt over a pizzeria till D was nine–once we had a higher income, it all went into th bank for school. And we feel lucky to have been able to do that. Our other choice could’ve been to, when we were able, move to the better district, pay for all the special stuff, and limit the kids to the merit school route. I think it worked better this way.</p>
<p>There are so many choices to make when raising kids. We were not good at the saving for college part, as we chose to to spend it on the moment, on the best education options and cultural programs. However, I hear people who are looking at a move to the NYC area and they tell me that they cannot find a house for under $1 million there! Well, that is not true at all. Lots of homes in Westchester about a half hour up the road for well under a million. But my old neighorhood is not on the list of places to live, and the old ramshackle house is not exactly their idea of the time of home. Everyone makes choices. </p>
<p>I also don’t like the way our college system has evolved where the cost is astronimical for something so basic as education, knowledge, things that really help a society. Makes no sense at all that it works that way. But it has spiraled into a situation that I really cannot come up with an alternate plan that involves much, much money. I am also very concerned about the money colleges have been pouring into their campuses and facilities that really do not affect the education. Yes, a nice student certer is great, but to make it a Taj Mahal? The same with the dorms and athletic facilities. Four years of plain living may not be such a bad thing for these kids. We are sending them to Club Med, it seems. And it’s like those Bar and Bat Mitvahs my son attended when he was 13, each one trying to outdo the other until someone does something so over the top, that every settles down, it seems. Did they really have to raise the tuition another 5% this year? Couldn’t they have cut a nonacademic frill instead to come up with that money?</p>
<p>Jamimom- yes, yes, yes…how can my DD internalize the lessons of “starving college student” and living on a budget within her means when it seems that every other kid has nice cars and daddy’s gold card and then the schools want to yuppie-up all the facilities. Not that I mind a nice clean serviceable dorm room, but the conspicuous consumption is scary…thank God SS is at the public and not the university with a rep for having rich kids- from what I am seeing these kids have plenty of discretionary cash and it annoys me :rolleyes:</p>
<p>What college kid wouldn’t want more stuff rather than less, a nicer laptop, a bigger and better ipod, a faster car, more trendy clothes- especially if Daddy is paying, but what kind of lessons are they learning and what will the reality check be like when they graduate and cannot afford the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed? How are they ever going to learn to tighten their belts?</p>
<p>Don’t get me wrong, I am not wishing they lived in poverty with roaches, but I am blown away by the spending I see (not just hear about, but see when I am visiting) SO many kids have daddy’s platinum card and use it for any and everything, not just for emergencies.</p>
<p>EFC for folks on the lower end of the financial spectrum is actually not 25% of income. During my years as a single parent with one kid in college and an income around $35,000, my FAFSA EFC ranged around 3100. I was renting and had about $13,000 in savings. No other assets, driving an old car, fully paid for. </p>
<p>Things have changed now as I have remarried, and the FAFSA EFC with gross income before deductions for retirement around 99,000 and a small piece of rental property we own, is truly about 25%. H is in his mid-50’s, I’m in my late 40’s. I am thankful to be able to afford now to pay more for S’s college (not to mention other things! :)</p>
<p>Not to pursue a picky point, but, I copied this out of a budget report from our city school district:</p>
<p>“RCSD instructional costs are $7,351 per student this school year (2003-2004), which ranks
10th among the 17 Monroe County districts and is nearly equal to the Monroe County average of
$7,342 per student despite the challenges of educating low-income students. Instructional costs are
available on the New York State Department of Education web site and are the standard measure of
how much each district spends to educate its students.”</p>
<p>Evidently, they feel this is the figure to use. I don’t know if that is truly a valid point or not. I wonder if it includes costs of new schools? The (affluent) suburban schools districts around here have nearlly all built brand-new schools and embarked on major facilities upgrades in the past few years.</p>
<p>You know, I have said this before, about the colleges these days. It seems that the standard of living among these kids is a lot higher. At my alma mater, there just were not that many off campus options those days. You drank bad cheap coffee for the caffeine and tea from the hot pot, no lattes and chai. No Starbuck either which can be an expensive habit. Now the streets around the University are laden with cafes and delis and pizzerias, and cute little restaraunts all saying “come hither”. We ate at the lousy cafeteria because that was pretty much the only option and it was paid for, very important. Maybe once a week or so, we would chip in for a cheap pizza or this little Chinese restaruant that gave so much for the money. I see the Zagats in the bookstores now and they are not just for visiting parents. </p>
<p>Also the computers, the palm pilots, the cell phones. It is a whole different world. But all of these amentities are really bringing up the cost of college across the board. Don’t know how these kids expect to live when they get out and get their jobs, and become true low income people.</p>
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<p>So true, Jamimon! For many kids (like my own), going out on their own after college will probably be the first time that they will actually have to down-scale their living situation. </p>
<p>The solution that many kids are coming up with: move back in with Mom and Dad while beginning their careers. I know of two such situations–and these are not kids with minimum wage jobs–I’m talking about one kid who is on Wall Street and another who is starting at a Big 4 accounting firm. Only way to keep up high standard of shopping on an entry level wage!</p>
<p>mothree - as one new to FAFSA, etc. I’m amazed that your single mom EFC was $3100 instead of $0. What does it take to have a zero? If your S/D didn’t deserve a full ride from any 100% school, I don’t know who does.</p>
<p>Our after tax income is aboout $45,000 and our EFC is $13,000. ( that was last year- I have been putting off FAFSA this year)
We don’t have a lot of investments, we do own a house that has inflated in value , but our FAFSA is about the same as our CSS EFC</p>
<p>
I have always cringed at the “kids today simply have to move back home because they have it so tough trying to make ends meet; you’ll see, it’ll happen to you too” pov of so many parents. </p>
<p>ellemenope has truly captured it in a nutshell. It’s not about cost of living, it’s about cost of shopping. And so many of those who move home to “save” do no such thing; they shop.</p>
<p>I’ve also heard of kids moving in w M/D because they don’t want the “hassle” of a roommate to make housing affordable. H and I tell our son that the last place on earth we would have wanted to live after grad was w parents, because it was true. I shared a funky house with 4 roommates for a time; H lived in a trailer at one time. Can you imagine the parishiltonclones contemplating that?!</p>
<p>Never thought about the possibility that campus amenities create or ramp up these unrealistic expectations. But having visited our share of campuses in 2004, I now see what you mean.</p>
<p>Btw, it’s not always about what stuff S/D has. It’s also about how they got it. Our S has had a credit card with his name on it since about age 14, to teach him that plastic is for convenience not for spending $$ you don’t have. Anytime he uses it (not too often, he’s just not a mall rat thankgawd), he places the cash from his savings on my end table to pay for whatever he has just bought. Ergo, I’m not worried that he will get to college, receive an unsolicited credit card in the mail, think it’s free money and start building up ridiculous debt. S has an iPod, too, but has learned that it is a choice for an iPod *instead of *, not in addition to, designer clothes or whatever - you can’t have it all.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity, are you self-employed? Or does your daughter have some money in her own name, or her own earnings being counted? I think a $45K after tax income should ordinarily result in a lower EFC - but things get complicated if you are self-employed, and even a small amount of student savings or earnings can add a big chunk in to the total. Also, if you are married but only one spouse is working, you end up with a bigger EFC than if both spouses are working and together earning the same amount – I think the formula has a built in assumption that an unemployed spouse has the capacity to go out and start earning some money… whereas 2 underemployed spouses are presumed to be earning all they can.</p>
<p>part of the problem is our income is lopsided. I am minimumly employed becuause I spend the majority of my time trying to get a better education for my daughter and for her peers in public schools. Like I posted in another thread, she was in sped but wasn’t getting any appropriate help and I quit school so that I would have the time and energy to deal with the district. Now that she is in a better place, I am trying to change things for other kids as well. unfortunately it doesn’t pay anything other than knowing that I am making a difference.
If our income was divided equally according to the calculators that would lower our EFC several thousand dollars.
It doesn’thelp that we live in one of the most expensive areas either, who woulda thought that our 1901 house in a industrial neighborhood would be worth $350K?
I think there is a bubble that is slowly leaking but considering that CA still has an even more pricey housing market those &^%$ californians are still moving up here thrilled at the “low” prices in Seattle!
( only partly kidding 
I am extra sensitive about being lower middle income lately, cause my daughter is going into a materialistic phase and moaning about how small our house is, and how come we only go camping for vacations. ( and this is from somebody who went to Hawaii in 8th grade- Ashland in 7th grade and NYC/DC summer after 8th gd)
So we have refinanced our house but I imagine that CSS will want us to use the money for tuition instead of a 2nd bathroom :(</p>
<p>I don’t actually see a great disparity in the EFC calculations I know about, and question whether the anecdotal stories of people with fancy cars bragging about getting lots of college aid actually reflect the FAFSA calculations of people who get low EFC’s despite high income. I would assume that an EFC would include the expectation that people would either save or borrow some of the cost of education. I’d like to see more taxpayer money going into state colleges, becuase I don’t get really worked up over who does or doesn’t get into HYPS-type schools, but I am concerned about the increasing stratification and lessening economic mobility of our nation. The rich stay rich, the poor stay poor, etc. I see the best way to a meritocracy is not by giving more aid to a few thousand kids going to a handful of top tier U’s and LAC’s, but in making the educational opportunities better and more affordable for the hundreds of thousands going to the next tiers of colleges. And that’s not happening.</p>
<p>Kluge, my daughter would kill me for saying this, but I agree with you. It’s terrible when capable students cannot afford to attend their in-state universities, and the vast majority of kids attending public colleges do NOT have parents able or willing to support them through 4 years of college. So among other things, the FAFSA discriminates against them by counting parental income, when in fact many of these kids are essentially on their own.</p>
<p>Kluge, I agree that efforts need to go into State U’s to make the gradustes more competitive. We need to make employers respect these schools. I was shocked at the response when I tried to help some UCSD students get jobs in industry. Corporate America does not see the school as a top school, as I do. “Good for science, but these kids can’t compete with top school kids in business.” Yuck.</p>
<p>You cannot go by what kids or even parents say. I tried to collect statistic on college acceptances. I figured if I could get the parent and child in agreement, my data would be accurate. Well, I accidently found out that I was getting incorrect info. Now I either have to know they are going to the college or see the letter, and I pay those kids I work with a hefty bounty for their letters, but I get only half the info I could get. Even trickier is financial info. There is a post on this forum where a kids with an EFC that just misses the Pell grant cutoff saying that a number of his friends are getting the Pell with a >$5000 EFC. I don’t think that is likely. I used to hear so many big fish stories about athletic scholarships to a point that I had to tell my son, that none of them are reliable until you get independent verification. a nice young man who was ok in the sport with a football scholarship to Penn State? He was playing football for a satellite campus and got some financial aid. Athletic scholarships for some sports are rare. I have heard of kids getting them from ivies and school where I happen to know that none were given for the sport or there is only one and I know where it went. I would not go by what people say. It is a waste of time to count other people’s money.</p>