Elementary School Children

Parents Forum
1

<p>Although I realize this is a college forum, and that I am not a parent, I was hoping that the parents here would have some experience with distance education for younger children. </p>

<p>My sister is seven, and my parents and I feel that she hasn’t improved academically since she started (shes in 2nd grade) because the school she goes to supposedly doesn’t have time to allow her to excel. Her reading level in kindergarten was a 3rd grade level, and it is now a 4th grade level. I know that it is already good, but I was hoping for more for her. Her mathematics skills lag far behind what my parents expected as well. She prefers english over math, but she just recently learned how to subtract two digit numbers. Of course, they haven’t covered subtracting two digit numbers wiht carrying over. My sister only knows how to because I explained and taught it to her. </p>

<p>I know this is somewhat unfair, but my parents and I have set her against my pace, and in kindergarten, we were thrilled to see that she was far beyond me in reading, and only a little farther behind in math than I was at that age. Unfortunately, when I was in second grade, I was able to multiply and divide, and create coherent (although farfetched and banal) stories. She can’t. Yes, all kids are different, and some develop faster than others. But my parents and I had hoped for more from her. </p>

<p>Thus, my parents have decided to consider Distance learning, from John Hopkins University Center for Talented Youth (CTY). My main question is, how effective and useful is such a program? I personally took a program in middle school from them, and I found it to be alright, but not worth it. I was hoping that their programs for younger kids are better? Would you recommend just teaching her in our spare time (which is difficult to come by) or sending her to a local tutor instead?</p>

<p>Also, if CTY is a good option, what is the SCAT examination that is the prerequisite for taking a distance learning program? I tried googling and finding an example problem, but the closest I came was the phone # to regiester for the test. Could anyone with experience tell me about the test, its difficulty, and how difficult it is to score a 435 SCAT quantitative, and a 440 SCAT verbal? </p>

<p>Thank you very much for your time reading this, and I hope I can get some good information from you all.</p>

2

<p>no offense, but that post made me sad. i feel that all children are different and shouldn’t be compared to older siblings, and someone who is that advanced should be allowed to learn at their own pace, not forced into getting even more ahead… to me that’s like saying to a smart kid… well youre doing great in school, and youre really smart… but youre not as smart as we think you should be… so we’re going to send you to a new program to make you live up to our standards… sorry if that sounds bad, but that’s just my two cents.</p>

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<p>I understand that we shouldnt’ compare her to me, but I am distraught by her lack of progress. She hasn’t made any real improvements in any subject since kindergarten. We have tried to get her teacher to give her more dififcult material, but the teacher seems to alawys ‘forget’. thus my sister always comes home, and when we ask “what did you learn in school today” she always responds nothing. because she learned the stuff in kindergarten when we had time at home to teach her. She likes learning, and reading. but because her school has not helped her reach her potential, I thought something like CTY might help her. She goes to a Christian private school that is way too conservative for me (girls can’t wear pants to school) and I’m thinking maybe the teacher is afraid to let my sister advance because it was lower the self esteem of the other children or something. I guess I did come off as comparing her against me, but mainly, I want her to be able to excel, even if her school won’t help her do it.</p>

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<p>I personally do not see where the problem is here. I think you would have a problem if you said your sister was not challenged…for example, if she was capable of long division but is made to just work on two digit addition. But that is not what you are saying. You are saying she is not working at the level of math YOUR parents expect, yet she is working right on level of where she should be in math. You say she is working on two digit subtraction without regrouping. That is appropriate for this time of year in second grade and I am sure she WILL be working on two digit subtraction with regrouping (borrowing) soon. Your parents’ standard here is what I would question. I think if you guys want to enrich her in math, that is ok but it is not like she is not doing well for her age, from what you are telling here. </p>

<p>In language arts, your sister is reading above grade level. In this instance, what is important is to ascertain if she is being given work on the appropriate level of her skills/achievements. Is she reading chapter books of appropriate difficulty, doing more difficult comprehension work, writing stories, etc. My guess is she is working on reading on her own level, not a second grade level. If not, then it is appropriate to meet with the school to have accomodations made here. I can’t see where there would be any complaints in math because I don’t observe this as an instance of the school not meeting the needs of a gifted math student, but simply your parents’ standards are above what your sister is achieving in math which is apparently right on grade level. I am not sure this is really an issue then. </p>

<p>But my guess is that your family can supplement school learning if your sister has interests in particular areas…be it reading, writing, math or any other subject. My kids have only done CTY distance courses that are meant for older kids working on a college level of math or writing. I think it might be worth looking into for your sister but I don’t think I totally understand the reasoning here for math. I could see it if your sister was so advanced at math and needed math courses beyond what she could get at school due to her gifted learning needs. But I hear this more of a case of wanting to “push” the child to a certain math level that is advanced beyond the level of her grade. Usually I can see doing outside math in one of two situations: one if the child is struggling, then get tutoring to get the child up to speed, and two, if the child is gifted in math and needs more advanced math work beyond which the school is willing or able to provide with accommodations. I am not sure I get it in a situation where the child is performing as she should be in her current grade. I think the issue for your sister is more making sure she is appropriately challenged in her reading activities in school. </p>

<p>Just my view. </p>

<p>Susan</p>

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<p>PS, how about making your sister or buying your sister, a really special journal to write stories and draw pictures in? Writing is important and if you feel she is not progressing much in that area, why not do activities like that at home that are fun if she is into it? My kids loved writing books and illustrating them, both by hand and on computer, and binding them. I don’t know if your sister does this at school or not but there are things like that to do at home that are enriching if she is into it.
Susan</p>

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<p>My daughters were totally different, only two years apart, but the oldest is a reading dynamo and the other shines at math. I NEVER compared them as I knew it would create esteem problems for the younger one…since you were so special, how can she possibly compete with that? You need to back off alot…my older girl read, while my younger drew and did art…I found what my younger daughter did well and encouraged that, and I knew where she wasn’t as strong, that would catch up. Once she found her strengths, which were soooo different from her sister’s, she gained confidence, knew she was special in her OWN RIGHT, and the other areas did indeed catch up. So do not push her the way you are, or she will feel even worse about herself. I bet she cringes whenever you bring stuff up. Do you ever just do silly, fun stuff…trying on shoes, painting her nails, seeing a movies…do those things first…go to a museum and laugh at the modern art…you get the idea…right now, my younger daughter is getting better grades in 8th grade then her sister did…so give it some time!!</p>

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<p>Hi, Ariesdrgn, </p>

<p>I sympathize with your concerns. My second son is the age of your sister. The one thing I have learned as a parent of four children is the truth of the saying, “The parent of one child believes in nurture, and the parent of two or more children believes in nature.” </p>

<p>The issue to figure out here is whether your sister is being slowed down by her school arrangements, or whether she is developing according to her individual pattern. In general, I give my children a lot of freedom (we homeschool) to figure out what their favorite activities are when they are very young. As they get to be school age, they develop particular subject matter passions, and I support and encourage those. My oldest son has been very involved in learning math for several years, and is getting to be nationally ranked among age mates in math. I am pretty familiar now, after years of research on the subject and lots of advice from other parents, on how to help a young learner maintain an accelerated pace in math. </p>

<p>My second son appears to be most interested in visual arts–drawing, painting, and sculpture. All of my kids draw, but he appears to spend an especially large amount of his free time drawing, and he seems to find that activity most enjoyable. Drawing is a rather disparaged skill in this post-photography era, but there still have to be human beings who can create images of things that have never been seen or invented before, and I expect to continue to encourage his drawing interest. He doesn’t have to follow the schedule of my oldest son. All my children do have to keep busy, and learn basic politeness and literacy and numeracy, but I don’t have any particular schedule for any particular child’s learning of any subject. </p>

<p>We have used CTY distance learning courses and summer courses, and we have used EPGY distance learning courses a lot (all for my oldest son, so far). They are wonderful. Our approach to homeschooling is mostly to have our house full of books (books we buy, books we get as hand-me-downs, and books from various libraries) and to use some of the best instructional materials in a casual way. (I’m particularly fond of the Miquon Math series published by Key Curriculum Press for elementary math instruction, followed up by the Primary Mathematics series published by Singaporemath.com.) I don’t worry about my children following anyone else’s schedule. I worry a lot about their time being wasted by poor instruction, so I am providing most of their instruction, based on the advice of hundreds of parents and teachers I have conferred with online or in person over the years. I do think any child deserves to have youthful curiosity remain intact, and to have good instruction that provides challenge and motivates effort in learning. It may be that your sister would have a lot of fun and gain a lot of learning from the CTY distance learning materials. </p>

<p>Please let us know how it goes.</p>

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<p>Thank you all very much for your opinions. They are all very helpful</p>

<p>soozievt—in language arts, she has definitely been held back. The books she is reading for class is the type that is in like 14 pt font, and is 1 1/2 spaced. her reading homework assignment generally lasts about 30 seconds, and thats because she needs to re-read what she already read (she finished the entire book the day it was given out). we have progressed her reading by going to the library weekly, and checking out at least 3 books. Compared to her school reading, her library reading is exceptional. She finished 2 Harry Potter books in a week, as well as some Dahl, Where the Red Fern Grows, and some Blume books. We have talked to her teacher to try and give her some harder material, at least in English, but to no avail. And this is in a class of 11 students. The only reason I can fathom is the extreme conservatism of the school (before elections, they were teaching the kids “vote bush! yay!”) and a fear that it will hurt other kid’s self esteem, who will then go tell the parents, and get the administration in trouble. Even though her reading level is very high, she has problems creating stories. Could you give some advice about how to start her off? should we use some easier books as guidelines?</p>

<p>ctygirlsmom—oh we definitely don’t tell her this stuff. We only compare her in private, when she is asleep. She also enjoys art a lot, and we have gotten her an art teacher, goache, watercolor, acrylic, oil, et., paints. Her self-esteem is sky-high because she is the top in her class of 11. She always comes home gleaming with happiness because she spent time wiht her friends, but bored because she still hasn’t learned anything new (except maybe “vote bush!”) She loves coming home and reading some of the more difficult books that her teacher doesn’t give. We haven’t pushed math at all essentially, although I know she can excel at it because she is very quick in understanding (it just takes the right example. It took her a while to learn regrouping subtraction, but once an analogy to $$, trading your dimes for pennies, dollars for dimes, etc, was used, she got it immediately). </p>

<p>that fun stuff is my parent’s job :slight_smile: she passed the tying anything possible phase 2 or 3 years ago. as a guy, i leave the nail painting to my mom. she goes to movies at least once a month with some friends. But I love the art museum idea! my sister likes art, but she prefers realism, and showing her some abstract would expand her views! do you have any other ideas like that? I would love to hear them.</p>

<p>tokenadult–that is a great phrase! I personally think that she is being extremely held back in language arts (i described her reading above) and somewhat held back in math because of the slow pace, and the fact that my sister grasps the concepts taught very quickly. The main benefits of sending her to a private school have been the religious education, which my parents strongly believe in, and her socialness. The instruction she is getting in school isn’t poor per se, but slow. As I typed that, I thought of another possible reason why the teacher won’t give my sister harder books, even after multiple e-mails and letters. Maybe she doesn’t want to make my sister stand away from the crowd, and essentially single-ing her out? I’m not really sure. Could you give me some advice about good instruction? In the last couple months, my family didn’t have much time to help my sister, so we usually used books or art to keep her busy, while I worked on college applications and stuff. Now that applications are out, we have turned our attention to her. </p>

<p>Because you do have knowledge about CTY, do you know anything about their SCAT testing, and how difficult it is?</p>

<p>Again, thank you all for your time and responses.</p>

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<p>My oldest son did the higher-level SCAT test, the SCAT-Intermediate, to qualify for his first CTY distance learning course. It was much of the nature of any multiple-guess achievement test. For a child who is genuinely advanced beyond the age placement that the child has in school, it shouldn’t be impossibly hard to get a qualifying score. As I recall, all students who register for the test receive a booket of sample questions before taking the test, so everyone has an equal degree of test familiarity going into the testing. It’s definitely worth a try for a girl who is reading what you describe your sister reading.</p>

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<p>I don’t believe you can hold someone back in reading in the second grade, because they can finish what they are assigned and then go home and read any book they want. Kids aren’t a machine part that you can crank out the same size and caliber on a pre determined time frame.</p>

<p>Math - There are a variety of theories regarding when is the right time to learn a specific math task. If you believe that Piaget was on the right track, people’s brains accumulate a certain amount of knowledge gradually and eventually it triggers a jump in understanding that allows the student to move into the next phase. Understanding “borrowing” when you subtract two digit numbers is a bigger step than most people realize. Get her some tiles to play with.</p>

<p>Writing - encouraging a journal is fine, drawing pictures and writing about them is fine, if she wants to. A lot of children develop creative dialog when they play with toys. Does she get a chance to play with toys, have friends and fun?</p>

<p>You identified yourself as a child, so I will tell you something. I think it is wonderful that you are concerned for your sister, that is a good thing. I don’t think you should be worrying because she is only so many grades ahead of everyone else. If your parents don’t like the school they should consider alternatives.</p>

<p>Children learn a lot when they play, when they pretend, when they lie on their backs and look at clouds. Your sister will grow up and if she is like most adults I know, there will be a time when climbing a tree will no longer be a consideration. </p>

<p>There are many forms of intelligence and non of us are the same in the combination of talents and skills we have. It isn’t a competition.</p>

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<p>Aries: you might also inquire if Ohio and has a GATE (Gifted and Talented Education) program for students. Those programs often start in 3rd or 4th grade, and provide greater depth and complexity of the material (different than acceleration), which your S seems capable of, particularly in reading.</p>

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<p>When children are bored at school, they sometimes just forget how it is - to lie on their backs and look at clouds… </p>

<p>Ariesdrgn, you are a wonderful brother, and that’s great you care so much about your sister development. I do not feel at all that you are comparing her to yourself; and the concerns about luck of development for three years of schooling are quite valid. Unfortunately, gifted girls pretty often just “dumb themselves down” in order to gain social acceptance, to “fit in”. :(</p>

<p>I do not have any experience with distance programs for young children, but you might take educational software in the library (Zoombinis etc), and your sister will have some additional food for her brain development…</p>

<p>You might want to read <a href=“http://www.hoagiesgifted.org%5B/url%5D”>www.hoagiesgifted.org</a> - the site about gifted - and find there materials about testing, grade skipping and advocating for gifted child.</p>

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<p>even if you don’t say anything in ear shot, the girl knows you don’t think she is doing as well as you want her too, believe me…I told my girls the teachers just didn’t know how to teach to their styles, so I did a lot of homeschooling while they were in school…but it was always fun, so enough with the practicle life lessons at 7, and just cuz you are a boy, doesn’t mean yo don’t do the FUN STUFF!!!</p>