I don’t equate not participating in competitions with doing something in a total vacuum. There’s a difference between performing in public and performing in a competition. Take art, for example. Suppose a serious art student has done art for many, many years, has taken courses at the college level at a nationally recognized arts college, has had works displayed in college-level shows, and has a glowing supplemental letter of recommendation attesting to their ability; they may or may not submit an art supplement for the university department to judge. Does winning Scholastic Arts & Writing awards really add much to the strength of their interest in this area? If a poet has published extensively and participated in top workshops with nationally recognized writers attesting to their ability, does it matter whether they have won poetry competitions?
No one expects colleges to take applicants based on their unsupported declaration that they are really, really good at something. But support can come in lots of different forms, and formal competitions are only one such form.
My question is whether the person in RD’s example would be taken a bit more seriously if, in addition to those fine activities, she also received awards. I understand that you want to emphasize that an applicant doesn’t “need” any specific thing. But this is a selective process, and applicants are being compared, and if they want to succeed, should do their best to tell the most compelling story that the truth will allow. Of course the overall app matters–that’s my point.
My kiddo did teach origami to seniors. He was also in two school orchestras, but was under no illusions that anyone would want a workmanlike violin player. I do think it’s helpful if the activity isn’t completely a solo one. My older son is the one they made the t-shirt “I’m not anti-social, I’m just not user-friendly” for, but I think it made a big difference that he had several different activities where his computer programming required him to interact with other people. I don’t know, but to me that is more important than whether he won some computer contest.
I agree you don’t create an “and”, but you can look for opportunities to do more interesting things with whatever it is you are already doing.
Awards certainly aren’t everything. No one in our school was going to get a national level Science Olympiad award because the overall team wasn’t strong enough, but lots of kids got State level awards. Sometimes it’s just a matter of not knowing whats out there. Not every budding mathematician is at a school that participates in the AMC or AIME contests.
I would never tell a kid not to do lobstering because I suspect that the hard work it involves would be good for any kid, and probably especially a kid who up till then led a sheltered middle class life.
I know a kid who is #1 in his class, captain of a sports team, near-perfect SAT and SAT II scores, plays an instrument in the school band, universally well-liked with great recommendations. OK, so now you’re in the conversation at the most highly selective schools, but so what?
AND
In addition to that other stuff, he self-studied an obscure (in the U.S.) language through an online class for 4 years, won a State Department scholarship to travel to that country for a summer immersive language course, then came back home and volunteered at a refugee resettlement program that enabled him to use (and enhance) his language skills.
In his essay, he wrote about the experience and his plans to continue studying the language in college.
To me, that ties together a personal interest with contributing to a broader community, while containing an academic component.
^ I agree, that is a very strong “and”. It shows independence, initiative, persistence and commitment, it combines multiple synergistic elements, and it apparently links up with the applicant’s overall narrative.
@baltimoreguy I enjoyed reading your post #403. I read the first part and thought that it sounded like many kids I have known, then read the ‘AND’ section and was seriously impressed. Wow. Where is this kid applying?
The AND in the example described by @baltimoreguy seems pretty compelling. I think this kid would have a strong shot at the most selective schools even if another criteria was below average, i.e. not 1st in class or SATs between 50th and 75th percentile at that school, etc.
This thread is fascinating. I appreciate reading everyone’s thoughts, particularly as I have a daughter getting ready to ride the admissions roller coaster next year. I really only have one bit of anecdotal evidence to add to the pile. My son is a freshman at one of “those” schools. He is rooming with six guys. When he talks to me about his roommates, I kind of subconsciously think of them as the “baseball player”, the “chess guy”, the “cellist”, etc. I am sure that when his roommates talk to their parents, the parents categorize my son as the “football player”. Reading this thread, I found that fascinating, especially since these are impressions I have formed based on shaking a couple hands and my son’s impressions of his new roommates. This is not something these guys are putting out to impress ad coms. It is part of who they are.
In short, they are all smart, accomplished kids. But each has something unique in their background that sort of jumps out at you, even after a superficial acquaintance. I would bet that there are a lot of dorm rooms at similar schools where the same thing occurs.
My daughter has a roommate who is a circus performer, another who started a business, and another who is a varsity hockey player. I can’t say for sure that these things helped them get in, or whether kids who have the whole package tend to have something like this as well.
Note that baltguy’s example had the sort of extras that I think RD was after. It even goes beyond the apparent synergy. The kid apparently devoted plenty of time, then moved to more intensive language work. The State dept scholarship includes a stipend and, afaik, is ultra highly competitive. Then he chose to vol with the refugees. This isn’t just pursing any old “passion.” It’s a combination of efforts, including some good vol work. You can imagine he came across to adcoms as willing to stretch beyond his own more immediate satisfactions. I would also think this was balanced with some school activities. And that the essay was well presented. I’d also guess he didn’t stumble in any way in the rest of his app and came across as grounded and able to interact well with peers.
Or maybe not and he slipped through. Who knows?
I know some parents don’t want to artificially push their kids. But a lot of parenting is exposing them to some “more” over time and hoping they pick up the skills to then identify their own challenges and take them further, on their own.
You don’t have to join a circus. The top colleges aren’t looking for acrobats or roustabouts.
Could you clarify what you mean when you say this? Do you mean that a kid who (in addition to having great academics) is also a successful acrobat shouldn’t mention this on his application? Are you suggesting that having an interesting activity like that will have no impact on selective college admissions? Are you just saying that you, personally, don’t find being an acrobat to demonstrate “awesomeness?” Or what?
^^^
I can’t speak for LookingForward, but I read post 412 as saying that top colleges aren’t specifically looking for acrobats and roustabouts. Being an otherwise qualified acrobat or roustabout could help one stand out, but there’s no “acrobat / roustabout quota.”
What about someone who is an acrobat AND a roustabout? Now that would be impressive. ^:)^
Seriously,I don’t think the top colleges are specifically looking to fill specific skill sets, outside of perhaps athletics, and certainly not esoteric ones. There may be some basic needs identified. But I doubt it’s as simple as “we need a flutist”, and certainly not “we need an acrobat / roustabout”. But I think that they are very open to any kind of interesting or accomplished skill set that demonstrates passion and commitment, and which goes along with an applicant fulfilling the other basic requirements to be competitive.
One of my cousin’s kids was a Circus Smirkus performer. He went to Harvard. He’s also a world class ultimate frisbee player and a smart kid. I don’t think spending a couple of summers being a clown hurt him, but who knows how much it helped.
I like Blatguy’s kid too. And yes those State Department fellowships are competitive, though picking an obscure language probably helps. DS was a runner up for Arabic at the college level scholarship.
Really colleges want a variety of kids in their class. It would be pretty boring if they were all budding linguists or all circus performers. So kids shouldn’t be afraid to pursue whatever they find fun and interesting. And parents shouldn’t be afraid to nudge their kids to do a little more with the activity when appropriate. I told my son that my gallery might be interested in his earrings. My computer guy got one of his lab projects through the serendipty of conversations at a neighborhood party.
I think this is a delicate process, and probably very different for different families. My own kids like to be pushed to some extent, and will spontaneously ask me to push them at times; at other times they get frustrated, and need a little prodding just to stick with things that they’ve chosen for themselves. I don’t think there’s any universal recipe.
I think the point is that your “and” doesn’t need to be particularly unique or special, but that it might make you stand out in terms of others as a more special person who might contribute to the college community in various ways.
For example, my older D is a vocalist and applied to various schools as a music major. Her “and” was that she had very strong leadership skills and was president of her school. So while her experience having leads in school shows made her "the singer"and got her acceptances based on her talent, I’m sure her leadership skills got her the label of “school president” and helped her get scholarships for leadership.
And this is how it played out. At NYU she was cast in different productions , but never snagged the lead female role. However, she was president of the school’s student run theatre program and was responsible for several productions and fund raising concerts. And the head of the program whén giving her an award as a graduating senior, said that from the first time he met her (in a pre- college program) that he knew she’d run Players Club someday.
Similarly, my studio art daughter ( “the artist”) also did musical theatre in high school. So I’m sure admissions saw her as the artist who could sing. And now as a senior at NYU, she is known for incorporating sound in her artwork and has been asked to work on a performance/ video piece based on the Magic Flute which will have its premiere performance at NYU this fall.
Hunt, are you trying to get me to say it’s an AND? Because it may be- or may not be. CC people are hung up on “standing out,” as if it just means something different. Anything different. They may think adcoms react as madison did, “Circus performer! That’s a new one!” (No offense intended. I know what you meant.)
Sure, be an acrobat. Admit it. But the colleges aren’t actively looking for kids who can tumble, walk a high wire or set a tent post. If there is a standard goal among tippy top colleges, it’s to find kids who observe and think on a certain level and then can act on that. Kids who are willing to reach out, challenge themselves, take on various responsibilities, sometimes experiment, put in the hard work, also have some fun, interact nicely with peers (even H says so, ) plus do for others in need, and more. And then reasonably present themselves in the app itself. Kids who don’t just talk the talk but also walk the walk, in ways that college finds relevant. It’s not perfect, the school may also need a bassoonist or a few more males in liberal arts. No guarantees. But you sure do push yourself ahead a bit, if you walked the walk and can show, not just tell.