Colleges love to publish glossy brochures with admitted class profiles in which they highlight the more impressive and interesting accomplishments of the students. Similarly, at convocation, college presidents like to include in their speeches a summary of who is in the student body, such as Olympians, national champions, inventors, entrepreneurs and the quirky ones like the saw players. So yes, I think they’d find a smart circus performer to be pretty cool addition to their list because his inclusion would show that the college staff don’t take themselves too seriously and can appreciate skills that aren’t academic in the least. And yes, I think they do want to accept kids with all sorts of unusual hobbies just because they’re unusual and will serve to promote their image as a top school whose students are the best in every endeavor known to man.
I know exactly what you’re talking about @TheGFG but don’t get the cause and effect backwards. I think what happens is that the President (actually his staff) will be preparing his speech and go to the Admissions Office for some interesting/unusual things to include. At which point, the Admissions Office goes back through the files of incoming students to find some examples. I don’t think the Admissions Office is making acceptance decisions thinking, “We better have a rodeo clown in this class for the President to talk about at convocation.”
No, but given two students with very similar profiles, the rodeo clown gets in over the violinist. Isn’t that what this thread is about? Distinguishing yourself from the pack of thousands of other kids who also have high grades in honors and AP classes, who are also NMF’s and Commended Scholars and Chemistry Olympians, who also are team captains and president of several clubs, and who are also first chair cellists in in the regional youth orchestra?
No, I don’t think it is. It’s not that simple. You have to look at level of achievement, time commitment, synergistic effect with other activities, and how the activity fits into the student’s narrative.
You really think it’s as “lite” as one being a rodeo clown?
No, this thread is not about oddball “anythings” to make a kid stand out.
So I think gfg may be kidding.
^ My bad then, for not picking up on the sarcasm.
Well, my opinion is that between two otherwise similar students (in terms of academics, ECs, etc.) the one who is also a rodeo clown will have an advantage in getting the attention of admissions folks, who are human beings. Human nature is to be interested in interesting and novel things.
I guess there could be some concern that students or parents reading this might think that some weird activity will be an easy ticket to the Ivy League. I agree with lookingforward that selective colleges aren’t looking for rodeo clowns in particular, and they’re not looking for people whose only impressive characteristic is that they are rodeo clowns. They are looking for people with the whole package–people who are not just accomplished and smart, but who are also interested in the world, etc. However, I still believe that the top schools receive multiple thousands of applications from students who have that kind of package.
I will say that as I think about this more, I’m not sure whether my observation that a very large percentage of students at elite schools (and Yale in particular) have something on the high school resume that’s pretty unusual is a cause of their admission to the school, or is simply correlated with being the kind of all-around inquisitive student who is most likely to have the stuff to get into a school like that. I think it’s probably a little of both. It also occurs to me that having some unusual activity (especially one that is time-consuming) demonstrates that you have the smarts and energy to do it while still maintaining top academics.
By the way, being a rodeo clown isn’t like being a circus clown. It’s a very dangerous occupation.
Do they? How many violinists and how many rodeo clowns are there in each group of this year’s matriculants?
What kind of violinist do you have to be to get the attention of an admissions officer? I don’t think the rodeo clown gets in “over” the violinist because the school values being a rodeo clown over being a violinist. The question is: if you need something in your application to stand out, what can that be? Perhaps some folks think you don’t actually need anything in your application to stand out in this way, and that it’s all about the gestalt of the whole application for everybody. I suppose it’s possible, but it doesn’t comport with my impression of human nature, and what is likely to happen if human beings are sorting through thousands of applications from students who may not seem all that different from one another.
Once again, we have widespread misunderstanding about the nature of chickens and eggs.
People see someone with excellent college prospects, courage and curiosity that leads to doing uncommon things and the CC’ers conclude that they need to find something uncommon to do.
I agree with Hunt.
It is indeed human nature. It should be intuitively obvious that an AO that is bleary-eyed after reading hundreds of routine applications would perk up when encountering an applicant with a unique interest/talent. I would. Wouldn’t you?
Have AOs reported that this happens? Yes.
Is it a sine qua non for admission? Of course not.
Does it make up for academic deficiencies? Of course not.
Can someone with an interesting talent still be rejected? Naturally.
Do universities highlight these talents in speeches and marketing material? Absolutely.
Should a kid take up something unusual just to get noticed? No.
However, if the kid does have a long-term talent/interest that is unusual and has pursued it with vigor, should he/she highlight it on the application? Yes.
As has already been discussed, I think the inherent drive and motivation need to come from within. Students shouldn’t be discouraged from pursuing oddball interests that genuinely appeal to them, but they shouldn’t be encouraged to do so under the mistaken impression that it will inherently make them stand out, and it’s certainly not a substitute for having adequate credentials in other areas.
I have read most (but not all) of this thread. It has been one of the most interesting cc threads to me, and seems to confirm what I have seen in son’s school - the over represented kids getting into the most elite schools have the “AND” or “plus” factor. It saddens me that being captain of a sports team, three season (but not recruited) athlete, president of the student body, editor-in chief of the newspaper or yearbook, 1st chair cello of the regional orchestra, president of the math team with a common state award (and all of the previous with the accompanying grades, rigor, and scores), seems to no longer be enough to get a acceptance. This has been sobering for me to read and is making me think twice about my son applying SCEA at HYPSM.
Edited: I also understand that in the 25,000 plus applicant sub 15% acceptance schools, there are many applicants who are high school presidents, valedictorians, captains and high performing athletes, editors, 1st chairs, etc. I understand it. I think many don’t. This has been good for me to read. I think it’s time to revisit the list of schools on my sons list.
@whatisyourquest, you make the point very succinctly.
Oh my God, are we still going around and around on this?
The “unusual activity” thing serves one purpose only: to make it easier for the adcoms to remember who you are. It will not get you accepted if you otherwise wouldn’t. It is not “better” than a more typical activity like playing the violin. It is not in the least necessary. It’s a totally superfluous thing. All it means is that when adcoms are discussing the different applications, they’ll refer to you as “the circus clown” rather than “which one was she? The one from Ohio who played in the youth orchestra? No, the one from Phoenix. No, wait, the one who wrote the essay about not getting made first chair violin.”
Note that the conversation between the adcoms is just as likely to go: “I don’t think the circus clown makes the cut.” They might still reject you; they’ll just remember you more clearly while rejecting you.
As for top schools boasting about the wide variety of unusual activities their students are involved in, I think it’s to be expected that high-achieving kids with a lot of intellectual curiosity would be likely to pursue some unusual hobbies. I think that’s just the way it works out. And of course the schools are going to talk about them, to make their student body sound as interesting as possible.
Why do you think this result is just as likely?
It’s a little odd, I think, to argue that everything matters, but that no specific thing matters.
I mean that I really don’t see any scenario in which adcoms pick one candidate over another identical candidate because one of them is a circus clown rather than a violinist. Why on earth would they do that?
But that’s exactly it. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that “no specific thing matters,” because obviously grades and test scores and similar matter a lot. But for squishy factors like what you’re talking about with the “AND,” I believe that it’s absolutely true that no one specific thing makes the difference. Those factors are exactly where what matters is the overall impression that adcoms have of the student, not any one specific thing.
I made an analogy earlier in this thread to what makes someone’s face attractive. When people talk about why movie stars are attractive, they might focus in on a particular feature – I think I mentioned Scarlett Johanson’s pouty lips. But although her pouty lips make her stand out among other Hollywood actresses, they don’t make her beautiful. Just imagine transferring her lips to another person’s face and you’ll see what I mean. What makes her beautiful is her entire face (and personality and everything else).
So I think it’s useless for anyone to obsess over whether they have an “AND.” If you’re the type of person who likes doing an unusual activity, you already have an “AND,” and if you aren’t, trying to choose one is not going to make one whit of difference.
And of course, since what we’re really talking about here is what will get you an acceptance to one of the top 10 most coveted schools in the country, rather than having to be satisfied with merely one of the top 20, I think it’s a stupid discussion anyway. Live your life, apply to colleges, and know that nothing about your experience or your future is going to have anything to do with whether you went to Harvard or were forced to settle for Tufts.
No, I was not being sarcastic. I was trying to say what Hunt said better in #426 and #429. I think the exceptionally smart and inquisitive students are often the ones who follow unbeaten paths into very interesting activities, so in that sense the unusual EC is part of the synergy being discussed. No one is saying it’s a simplistic decision on the lines of rodeo clown over violinist. But given that many, many applicants for top schools have dedicated countless hours to achieve excellence in their endeavors and also to expand them into community service etc., it may become a matter of wanting variety. So many top kids in our high school play a stringed instrument, do math and science teams, play tennis, and found clubs. Some have achieved a high level with one or more of those things, but the EC’s are all typical smart kid stuff. It makes sense for an admissions officer to be excited by something off the beaten path.
I don’t think anybody on this thread has urged anybody to choose an unusual activity in order to get noticed. Rather, what this thread is really about, in my opinion, is what to consider when crafting your application for a highly selective school. Since there are lots of kids on CC who apply to these schools, I don’t see how this is a stupid topic to discuss. And I guess I just disagree about how subjective evaluation processes are likely to work in the real world.
Let me phrase the question this way: is there anybody on this thread who would advise the highly qualified kid who is also a musical saw player to omit any mention of this on his Yale application? Because I think there are people, including some parents, who would and do discourage kids from mentioning “silly” hobbies on applications.