Yes, it makes sense for “elite” schools to look at the kids off the beaten path, after they have found the recruited athletes.
Again, this thread has never been about an “AND” obsession or about choosing an “AND” to look appealing.
Let’s compare this to the issue of the number of APs to take, in which the argument goes:
Don’t take a lot of APs because it “looks good.” Take APs only because you love to learn and because you’d feel bored or unchallenged, otherwise. But, of course, don’t forget to list your APs on your application.
Why is this discussion about unusual talents any different? Why do people find the AP argument above so compelling, but insist on building strawman arguments about unusual talents?
Don’t pick up an unusual talent because it “looks good.” Pursue your unusual talent because you naturally fell into it, love to do it, and have found the time to commit to it. But, of course, if you do have such a talent, include it on your application.
I think adcoms are simply looking for talented, super-smart kids who are also interesting people. It’s like the old hiring test of whether you would want to sit next to the applicant for six hours on an airplane if you hired them.
Bona fide artistic and musical virtuosos or academic geniuses will no doubt get a free pass on this test but under this scheme the clown probably wins out over the large pool of violin players.
@TheGFG, thanks for the clarification.
I would agree to the extent that given 2 equally qualified applicants with equally impressive achievements in a particular EC of focus, the one which shows more initiative, creativity and taking an “unbeaten path” will probably stand out more to adcoms.
My son’s friend really wants to go to Stanford and do computer science. In addition to possessing the academic/testing prerequisites to have a realistic shot at admissions, he has done some basic intern work for a software company. I have told his parents that he really doesn’t measure up if the internship is his AND.
He is also an extremely accomplished musician who has built from scratch a number of musical instruments, including a lute and a theremin, and given concerts using them both. I told them that if he can package that with a recommendation from a music teacher and an essay that talks about what he’s learned from building and performing with instruments invented literally a millennium apart, that is an excellent AND.
Exact same kid, exact same interests. But one version is going to be a lot more intriguing to Stanford. And then he can get there and major in whatever he wants.
Okay, then I think the original purpose of this thread (whether or not to list your frivolous hobby on your application) has become lost somewhere in this discussion. I agree with what you’re saying – though I wouldn’t have thought it would take this many pages to discuss!
I went to law school with a girl whose resume included the line “Activities: shopping for shoes for my size 11 feet.” She said it was amazing how well interviewers responded to that line – “it’s gotten me every job I ever had.” I guess we’ll never know if there were interviewers who rejected her for mentioning something so silly on her resume, but she certainly felt that it helped her!
@baltimoreguy , excellent example
Yes, obviously. That’s what shows that he’s an interesting person. I guess I just wasn’t understanding why anyone wouldn’t mention something like that. It’s obviously a big part of his life and something he’s very interested in. Be who you are! That’s the best advice anyone can give.
I’m not kidding - his family thought they should emphasize his relatively limited computer science experience, as it was most relevant to his intended course of study. At a certain point in the process, you have to start thinking like a marketer.
Baltguy gets it.
Its not the unusualness. And it’s not this CC idea they’ll refer to you by some moniker. That’s too simplistic.
It’s not not even limited to the synergy (though that is important.) It is what a kid’s choices (and that’s what activities represent) - through high school and in the app/supp- represent about his thinking, energies, curiosities and willingness, for himself and for the groups and communities around him. It either shows or it doesn’t. The whole app is the critical vehicle.
So quit thinking of this as some magic extra thing a kid does and look at it as what picture he is presenting. The whole of it.
I don’t think the shoe bit “got” her the jobs. I think she presented far more that qualified her. And somehow, plenty of positives, so that a random jokey line didn’t hurt her with the companies that did hire her. Same causation/correlation problem.
Baltguy definitely gets it.
@lookingforward, great summary. It has to fit into the context of the whole, and represent something interesting and compelling about the applicant in the context of his/her overall application.
So, when you say "finding the “AND”, what does it mean?
Finding it within yourself to put yourself out there, follow your passions and produce an “AND”?
HS seniors trying to remember what they have done to put on the application that might be an “AND”, despite their parents telling them that it’s silly?
HS juniors desperately trying to figure out what a good “AND” might be?
The adcoms identifying something in your application that they think makes an “AND”?
Yo don’t think that being good enough for Division 1 athletics while maintaining academic marks good enough for Ivy schools is “off the beaten path”? Been in many locker rooms?
Yes, let’s add, the instrument builder also needs the rest of his app points to be met. For a stemmy kid to be building instruments is neat. It’s an extension of the same sort of thinking strengths that work in CS or engineering (so there’s actually a more logical relationship than it seems, on the surface) - a mix of curiosity, focus, the precision required and inventiveness or creativity. Then add that he performed. Then the rest of his activities and a nice-guy/accomplished kid LoR. A good essay that backs up the picture. And if he doesn’t falter on the rest of the app, he will be remembered as a great kid. He’s packing power, folks. Can you see the difference?
Most kids don’t come so close. And on top of what BG describes, I’m glad BG gave the advice.
Ohio,Of course, I do . But sports is not “off the beaten path.” My athletic older kid had 780 SAT math, 800 math SAT’s II. Recruiting interest from top ten schools with no aid for athletes. Right before the middle class initiatives that some schools have initiated. Believe me, I certainly know what he went through. My nephew just graduated from an HYP school, played D1.
I also think BG’s advice is excellent, but it equally makes another point. The student didn’t change, only the package being presented did. How many kids receive guidance on how to market themselves in order to present the desirable qualities first and foremost vs. what they perceive as the desirable qualities?
I’ve never worked with a private counselor, but I think where the best ones really earn their money is in helping families realize the need to “package” themselves, then pointing them in the direction of opportunities that - if they follow them through - will give them the AND.
It’s been said here a lot, but finding the AND echoes a lot of what Cal Newport writes about. You really can’t conjure it up at application season of your senior year and even junior year is getting late in the game.
From a purely mercenary point of view, by the end of freshman year or sometime during sophomore year at the latest, a kid needs to decide what that AND is going to be. In a perfect world, that AND is going to reflect a kid’s genuine interest, and then a parent can help nurture that interest and provide opportunities to fit into to the overall narrative (and/or an expensive consultant can tell you what you need to do).
^ That’s the most common way that I respond to “chance me” threads: “Tell me what your interests are, what matters to you, what you want to study, and what you want to do with your life. How are you going to present a compelling narrative and present yourself in a way that will make schools think that you will take advantage of their incredible resources and will bring something to their community that other qualified applicants won’t?” The vast majority present themselves as a bunch of stats and ECs, but give little or no thought to this.
I have come across one kid who had one of the most unusual service projects in a far off land that I have come across and spent almost three summers doing it with no associations with any groups taking this kid there. The kid’s essays did not know how to package the experiences correctly for the top schools that the kid was most interested in. After reviewing the admission results, I can confirm that writing skills are very important no matter what great things one did.
Let me ask this question: how important do you think it is, in terms of admission to selective schools, for a student to come across as “likeable?” If I read a resume in which somebody referred to the difficulty of buying size 11 shoes, I think I’d react by thinking that person was probably funny and self-deprecating, traits I like. I think some of these offbeat activities would also make me think the person in question was likely to be fun (or at least interesting) to be around.
Now, please, I’m not saying that likeability is the only or most important factor to admissions. I’m just saying that it’s a consideration in the overall marketing plan.