Elite Colleges Open New Door to Low-Income Youths (N.Y. Times)

Parents Forum
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<p>pattyl,
Your post is so filled with wrong assumptions and economic elitism it is hard to know where to begin:</p>

<p>“If a private college wants to give 200 preference points to kids raised on farms in Fresno, that is fine. Just be honest about it. Don’t spew the garbage that the farm kid’s low SAT score would have been high had that kid been raised in Beverly Hills.”</p>

<p>Why is this “garbage?” Do you have evidence that spending more money per pupil, highly paid teachers, great guidance counselors and prep courses DON’T add to an SAT score?? I think many studies would refute you and if you are correct, please provide links to the studies. </p>

<p>“Let the applicants decide if they want to apply to a school that prefers the “life experience” of a farm kid or one who comes from a poorer zip code over a record of real time academic achievement.”</p>

<p>While there are some students in high school who have real time academic achievement, many of the wealthier kids have resume-padding “extra-curricular studying” at places like Choate and Stanford. I am sure that what is done there is fine, but to call it an achievement is insulting to real achievement. And even as a middle class parent, I cannot afford the 5K to send my kids to write poetry for 4 weeks in the summer. Plus, they need to work to help pay for some of the activities. </p>

<p>You sound like someone from a very high income bracket who wants to pull up the ladder, build the walls higher and keep those poorer than you out of the club. It saddens me that there are so many in our country now who have been told by our leaders that greed is OK, that even when born with no bootstraps, you had better make some to pull yourself up by.</p>

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<p>How is this fair? He was 222 points away from Amherst’s median score, using the 1600-point scale. That’s huge.</p>

<p>The posters who believe Mr. Jack took a spot of another candidate must think otherwise.</p>

<p>Amherst has about 1600 students. Because of that fact, I believe there are some analogies between its admissions policies and my college’s policies – especially for minority students. </p>

<p>My own alma mater presently has about 1500 students. My school, which is also attempting to attract minority students, has grown to 1500 students – in contrast to the 1200 that existed in my generation. </p>

<p>Of the new 300 slots, many are being directed toward minority students. One easy method of including min orities was to deliver 100% scholarships to 10 students each year through the Posse Foundation. If you do not know of Posse – their web site is
<a href=“http://www.possefoundation.org/main/news/index.cfm?PRType=archive&id=39[/url]”>http://www.possefoundation.org/main/news/index.cfm?PRType=archive&id=39&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The growth has permitted the school to enroll many more minorities. The foundation swallows the lost tuition, and the ultimate addition is NOT the loss of an admission to another candidate. Quite simply, there are slots at the school exclusively created for such students. If such slots did not exist, my alma mater would probably have maintained an enrollment of 1250-1300 students.</p>

<p>An analogous event – which may bring your blood to a boil – is revealed in “A Is for Admission: The Insider’s Guide to Getting into the Ivy League and Other Top Colleges” by Michele A. Hernandez. She states that celebrity candidates do NOT go through the process. Instead, the head of admissions takes the application, makes the calls, and acceptance will probably ensue – and maybe some schoilarship money comes from it or alumni support will grow with the addition of a popular celebrity joining the freshmen class. But, again this is for a few select spots – or additons in class size. So a class of 400 (Amherst-sized class) may become 403 with the addition of three celebrity candidates. No candidate loses admissions because of admittance of such students, instead the class is larger than average.</p>

<p>And, one last note: when does SAT score become the all-revealing gauge of future scholarship? I, someone of more privilege than Mr. Jack, outscored him on the tests by some margin. But from what I read, he well outperformed me in college. My hat is off to Mr. Jack. In the long road (marathon even) of education, he is the victor. Amherst, if it used SAT’s alone, would have failed by accepting someone like me over Mr. Jack. We now know Amherst made a wise decision.</p>

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<p>“Do you have evidence that spending more money per pupil, highly paid teachers, great guidance counselors and prep courses DON’T add to an SAT score?? I think many studies would refute you and if you are correct, please provide links to the studies.”</p>

<p>Actually, the District of Columbia has one of the highest rates of spending per pupil in the country and some of the lowest test scores with high drop-out rates and low college placement rates. School spending does not always correlate with success. What does correlate is parental involvement in schools and schoolwork, from a young age, and this is hard to find in many lower-income families. </p>

<p>Mr. Jack has an involved mother, which made a big difference for him.</p>

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<p>I fully support Amherst’s decision to find talented students from disadvantaged backgrounds. Obviously may need some bridging courses and programs in order to take full advantage of their education at Amherst, and Mr. Jack took many of them. What Amherst can’t give, and what may be missing from other students who may have better “stats” for lack of a better term, is character and motivation, particularly a desire to learn. From the article, it seems that Mr. Jack is an insatiable learner. He worked hard in his science courses and ended up majoring in religion with honors. I like the continual upward trend in his academic performance, too. </p>

<p>I would like to contrast Mr. Jack with our President who also reportedly received 1200 on his SATs although that was before re-centering. This is 1200 with the advantage of attending Andover! When he received an honorary degree at Yale, he quipped that he was proof that a “C student could become President.” I think the statement belied a sense of anti-intellectualism and the faulty realization that yes, a C student can become President IF he has legacy advantages throughout life and a father who was President. He was not a self-made man but father-made. From hearing Mr. Bush’s speeches and looking at his policy decisions and the lack of analysis involved in many of them, I believe that he is a good example of a legacy who can attend a top flight university and “earn” a degree without actually receiving an education. Although he earned an history degree at an Ivy League school, I am constantly amazed at his lack of understanding or recall of history. Obviously many legacies at top schools are qualified and hold their own in terms of academic and later professional achievement. However, there are some privileged legacies like Mr. Bush who did not take full advantage of their college educations. I remember reading an editorial written by Clinton Labor Secretary Robert Reich about his experience teaching such students at Harvard when Bush ran for President in 2000, and the issue of his poor academic performance came up. Although Reich obviously had a political agenda in the editorial, he said that such students “sat in the back of the class” and had very little intellectual curiousity. Their entry into the highest strata of our society was essentially assured, even if they did not graduate, so they had an attitude of why bother with learning? I find it ironic that President Bush is against affirmative action but overlooks legacy admissions. Unlike Jack, he and some other legacies did not appreciate or take full advantage of their educational opportunities at an elite college.</p>

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<p>to adigal …you go girl…</p>

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<p>^ Milty- I agree completely. GPA is a much better predictor of college success which is why SATs are not weighted too heavily in admissions.</p>

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<p>collegialmom, The Gates Foundation in fact does have grants and educational opportunities for “poor whites” as you put it. The school my son will attend next fall is a Gates Foundation-sponsored charter school with a mandate that 2/3rds of the kids live in poor areas that include, yes, poor white areas as well.</p>

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<p>Great article. I sent it to my son as he is considering Amherst. No where near his socio economic status now, but I can definitely relate to some of his hardships.</p>

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<p>The one thing that is never mentioned in the New York Times article is that Mr. Jack and the other students mentioned managed to escape their crappy local public school systems and get themselves into elite private and magnate public high schools where taking advanced courses and prepping for the SATs are the norm. Those schools should get all the praise. Amherst just cherry-picked from from a group of students that were already well-trained. I have the highest respect for these students, but I would have more respect for Amherst if it had taken a chance on an inner city kid who might have been a star in his regular inner-city broken-down high school.</p>

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<p>Well respect them because I know first hand a poor inner city kid who is a star a high school with a less than 50% graduation rate who will be part of the Amherst class of 2011 (he was on my caseload and I told her about Amhert’s initiative to attract more low income students). I also know low income students (blacks, whites, hispanics and asians) who are also currently in attendance.</p>

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<p>Sybbie719</p>

<p>Good for your students! Too bad Amherst didn’t ask the NY Times reporter to talk to those students, and not only to lower income graduates of elite high schools.</p>

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<p>“collegialmom, The Gates Foundation in fact does have grants and educational opportunities for “poor whites” as you put it. The school my son will attend next fall is a Gates Foundation-sponsored charter school with a mandate that 2/3rds of the kids live in poor areas that include, yes, poor white areas as well” </p>

<p>Well, there are LOTS of poor whites. Adigal mentions groups in upstate NY, and I have seen MANY in other states. They actually have no running water, and really not much future beyond welfare or a job at WlalMart, if they are lucky. But here is the program cited, from the Gates Foundation, specifically for “low-income students of color.” It was originally funded with $1 billion. Although well-meaning, it is prejudicial and short-sighted, I think.</p>

<p>Here is their latest press release:</p>

<p>Scholarship Program Continues To Remove Barriers to Higher Education for Minority Students</p>

<p>Gates Millennium Scholars Program awards its newest class of 1,000 talented low-income students of color with scholarships to pursue college degrees.</p>

<p>Fairfax, VA – The seventh class of Gates Millennium Scholars (GMS) has been announced. 1,000 high-achieving students, from across the country, have been selected to receive the scholarship award for the 2007-2008 academic year. With this support, these students will be able to attend any college or university of their choice without the financial burden which can often prevent many highly qualified young people from pursuing a college education.</p>

<p>The Gates Millennium Scholars (GMS) program, launched with a $1 billion grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, is designed to reduce financial barriers and increase the number of African-American, American Indian/Alaska Native, Asian- and Pacific Islander- American, and Hispanic-American students enrolling in and completing undergraduate and graduate degree programs. This year’s Gates Scholars were chosen from an applicant pool of over 12,000 students, and come from 822 different high schools in 47 states, the District of Columbia, American Samoa and Federated States of Micronesia.</p>

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<p>Sometimes, I think this is a no-win kind of debate. Talk about elite schools giving scholarships to low income students, and someone will say it’s a drop in the bucket and the elite schools should instead invest in k-12 education. That’s where the roots of the problems lie (quite right). But then comes along someone like Tony Jack who managed to overcome poverty and do well enough to be admitted into a private school; and then, on the one hand the elite school is described as cherry picking and on the other, his achievement is disparaged because he has a supportive mother.
The logical continuation of such an argument would be for the US to pour massive funds into fixing social ills from poverty to broken families, but I wonder how many would want to go there?</p>

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<p>“The logical continuation of such an argument would be for the US to pour massive funds into fixing social ills from poverty to broken families, but I wonder how many would want to go there?”</p>

<p>How about if the Iraq money had done this instead (or still could). I said from the beginning of the Iraq war, if those billions could go to the cities and poor rural areas, that would have strengthened America the most. Otherwise people are fighting about a relatively small piece of the pie for education, scholarships, running water, etc etc etc.</p>

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<p>Obviously, there are many opinions of what is “fair” in this process. It is very important to keep in mind, though, that people are free to spend THEIR money on whatever they believe it should be spent on (Gates). It is also very important to remember that private colleges are free to put THEIR resources to whatever use they feel is best (Amherst). You can have your own opinion … but they get to have theirs … and they get to act on their opinions (and they don’t have to ask for your permission before they make policy decisions). You can complain, you can take your business elsewhere, you can find another school. But you can’t change the fact that the way they spend their money or conduct their admissions process is their decision!</p>

<p>People have very deeply held beliefs on the whole affirmative action issue. It is good to argue our points, but chances are we won’t change anyone’s mind through this debate. Personally, I am just glad to know that there are people like sybbie out there changing the world one or two kids at a time. I suspect others who believe that the playing field is far from level are also actively trying to change things. We can (and should!) debate … but ultimately, our actions are what will truly affect change.</p>

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<p>Very good points by kelsmom.</p>

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<p>I wish someone had told me about colleges like this beforehand. My counsellor cant even say my name properly.
I had a tough time finding colleges this year especially colleges tht will help out with full rides.
Whn my dad died as a pensioner, I took a year of frm school before going back. My dad died with debts so high! My mom cant work, sick, depressed and she is so out of it, she barely hardly notices if I am alive. Our annual income is aroung 5000 dollars and we barely pull through.<br>
I went to this huge public school where I hardly got any guidance on colleges or even fin aids and scholarships . All I knew was I had to get into college and get a scholarship.
My SAT (cr+Math) is 1440 in one sitting and is 1450 if take in account 2 sittings.
I hv 3 APs and 4 honors with 760 in SAT Math 2c and 790 in Bio M. 700 in SAT CHEM and SAT Physics.
I already posted of my stats in another thread to get advice. I got a AP Scholar Award. My school gave me best academic award in honors chem.
My ECs are alright I feel. I am also a volunteer tutor for middle school kids.
Anyway, as if today all the colleges I applied did not give the scholarship I needed so this year probably I am not entering college. Still I am trying to find rolling admissions LACs and universities but since so late, many of thm (upon advice of cc guys) I emailed said their aid is finished.
Anyway, I am not going to say wht race I am.
I will enter college, if not this year it will be next year. I am resolved to tht. I love studying and it is the only place I find comfort.
My home life is not a joy and there is a constant harassment frm my relatives tht can make my mind pretty confused at times.</p>

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<p>Hi Skygirl,</p>

<p>I am sorry to hear about your situation.</p>

<p>as recently as friday I contacted a few schools on the NACAC listing for my students. There are some schools that still has open slots and financial aid. The admissions officers at some of the schools were very helpful and told me that I could fax over my student’s information and then follow up in the mail. I was told that the turnaround time would be about one week to ten days. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nacacnet.org/MemberPortal/forstudents/2007SpaceAvailabilityResults.com[/url]”>http://www.nacacnet.org/MemberPortal/forstudents/2007SpaceAvailabilityResults.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>or, what I also recommend is tht you take a gap year and apply in the fall to enter fall 2008. In the mean time, I think you should look into questbridge as there are many steallar schools that are now part of the questbridge program.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.questbridge.org/students/partners.html[/url]”>http://www.questbridge.org/students/partners.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>other things to consider:</p>

<p>Almost every single ivy and most of the elite LACs now have some sort of low income initiative for low-income students. </p>

<p>What you should do this year before leaving school is to touch base with teachers who can write you a good recommendation. </p>

<p>Since things are winding down a little also make the time to have a one on one meeting with your guidance counselor, so that s/he may get a fuller picture of you and your situation.</p>

<p>Put together a brag sheet or a resume to help your teachers GC write recommendations for you.</p>

<p>I hope this helps</p>

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<p>First, Amherst College judges applicant based on academics reader ratings - a reader rating is the admissions office’s projection of how you will perform in college. That rating is derived not just from SATs but the entire application, most importantly his essay which was said to be fierce.</p>

<p>The admission office had a reader rating and they projected that he would succeed based off of his application, particularly his essay. There were many students with an equal or superior reader ratings that were rejected…what admissions office saw was not merely that he was a low-income student, but a passion, hunger, and determination in addition to capacity to succeed unlike what was demonstrated in other applicants (not uncommon a case for strong low-income applicants).</p>

<p>This is why he was given the Obed Finch Slingerland Memorial Prize at graduation last weekend. The Obed is the schools greatest prize given by the trustees of the college to a member of the senior class who has shown by his own determination and accomplishment the greatest appreciation of and desire for a college education.</p>

<p>Anthony Jack is the most beloved figure on campus, a pivotal leader in many organizations, not just BSU, the 2007 candidate for Rhode Scholar, and one of the most articulate students I know. If you read his intial essay or his final thesis, which recieved honors, you would know that.</p>

<p>Going back, the admissions office would probably laugh at such discussion as this and respond by saying that his admittance was the best decision they made for the class of 2007. He was not admitted because of his low-income status. It was the experiences and qualities he derived from low-income status that made a better applicant than those with equal of superior credentials. In the end, if you have a reading rating of 1, 2, or 3 then it’s expected that you’ll succeed, the fact that you are a 1 does not make you a more qualified applicant at Amherst, the question after you’re reader rating is “What else ya got”? Tony had “it” and in four years displayed it beautifully and better than any other student on campus.</p>

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<p>Cre8ive,
Thanks for posting this. Some of us have known this generally (not specifically as applying to this candidate) for quite some time, so it’s validating to hear of how a decision like this has played out on an actual campus. It is but one of many examples of the process which is QUALITATIVE, SUBJECTIVE, and COLLECTIVE. (Sorry for shouting; don’t know how to do the bold thing)</p>

<p>But what I wish to highlight is what so many students on CC (& some parents) do not understand. This does not benefit just URM admits, low-income admits, etc. If you have “The Right Stuff” (not just the “right” scores), you also will tend to benefit more than if your “numbers” are merely computed & evaluated, or if that is the primary deciding factor. It doesn’t mean that every <4.0 and every <2250 will get in, of course not. The ones most likely to be seen as kind of “free agents” & multiple-admits are those with the complete superior package (& specifically most likely to get into HYP), esp. those with exceptional e.c.'s to reinforce a level of sustained internal motivation. In my view, holistic admissions is win/win for the college <em>and</em> for the student.</p>