<p>we_tard: think about what you are saying. It’s “unfair” that you got a full scholarship to camp but maybe can’t attend because your family can’t cover some uncovered expenses. Well, gee, since when were we all guaranteed the financial ability to get what we want? How about a job on the weekends or after school? Why should what others pay for be free to you? New clothes would probably help you compete better at those college interviews. And accelerated summer classes would surely varnish your CV. Should those be paid for by someone else too? And by whom? This is a mighty slippery slope. Maybe some other student will look enviously at what you have - maybe a really great intellect? - and think you have an advantage by being smart. How will that student expect that to be “equalized?” Everyone in life has different gifts, talents, and limitations. The “level playing field” is a myth.</p>
<p>I think what the colleges are trying to do is great - level the playing field for low-income students and make admissions more fair. However, the way they are doing this is not fair in itself. Yes, Mr. Black was helped by this type of affirmative action. And yes, a poor Asian would also be helped by it. But the difference is, poor minorities are helped much more than poor whites or Asians. I only hope that one day, colleges, when considering your financial status, will not take into account your ethnicity at the same time. They should look at your economic level separate from your race. This would then help disadvantaged students all the same, despite your race.</p>
<p>I believe that if two students have almost the same stats (SAT scores, GPA, ECs, etc), that colleges should accept the one who has received fewer opportunities in life (in other words, the poorer student). This ignores the ethnicities of those students. For example, if Student A is a middle class black and Student B is a low-income white, then the college should accept the white student. Why? Because he hasn’t received the opportunities in life that the black applicant might have and yet, they are both similar in stats. Unfortunately, from my knowledge or college admissions, the black applicant would be accepted over the white because colleges unfairly seek racial diversity more than anything else.</p>
<p>Why was my post deleted? That wasn’t cool. It was a perfectly valid post.</p>
<p>Pattyl,</p>
<p>You don’t know me well enough to say that much about me. You mention a job. Well, guess what? I have one. Still, I have to use the money for other things - important things that I’d rather not discuss. Also, when did I say others should pay everything for me so that I wouldn’t have to pay anything. I don’t believe I said that anywhere. I think you misunderstood me. </p>
<p>I like that colleges are helping low-income students, such as Mr. Black. I appreciate what these colleges are trying to do. However, I don’t like how they are doing it. Students benefit in college admissions if they are poor, but they are helped the most if they are minorities. I think that this type of affirmative action should only take into account how wealthy you are and not what race you are.</p>
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<p>Cornell only gives need based financial aid. If both students were accepted, Cornell would meet 100% of their demonstrated need. They pretty much do not give any one a "free ride’ because they include loans (stafford and perkins) in their financial aid packages.</p>
<p>Why do you keep calling him Mr. Black? His last name is Jack.</p>
<p>I hope everyone understands what I am trying to say. In case not, I’ll make simple. I support what colleges are trying to do - help poor students get accepted into top schools. But I oppose the way they are doing this. I do not like that fact that colleges help a poor minority more than they help a poor white or Asian. I think in this aspect, the poorer a student is, the more he should be given the upper hand in admissions, whether he is white or black or Asian or Indian. They shouldn’t take into account race at the same time they are taking into account your financial status.</p>
<p>sybbie719,</p>
<p>I merely used Cornell as an example to help people better understand what I was trying to say. I picked that college off the top of my head. But the point I was trying to make was that colleges give minorities more slack and expect more from whites and Asians.</p>
<p>Sorry if I called him the wrong name. I really thought it was “Mr. Black.” Apparently it is not. I’ll correct myself next time.</p>
<p>We<em>tard</em>it,</p>
<p>I do not know where you live but I have just spent the school year working (took a leave from corporate life and used my GC certification along with the stuff I learned here on CC at a low income school with a large asian population, many who are recent immigrants). </p>
<p>I had the opportunity to work with many of these students in the college admissions process. I can tell you first hand that many of them are getting free rides, ranging from City University Honors program, to HEOP at NYU, Fordham, SUNY honors program and Cornell to name a few. Even those with a limited proficiency in english are getting Free rides through ASAP, a new program starting this fall at the community college (a $500 per term book allowance and free transportation to boot) any tuition costs not picked up by FAFSA, remember undocumented students are not eligible for financial aid is picked up by the program and these students are just staying in the state. Others are getting extremely generous aid packages at Boston College, Boston U, Bowdoin, Amherst, Dartmouth, Drew, Mount Holyoke, Vassar, Barnard, Wellesley and I can go on. even students with high GPA and low SAT scores got very generous packages at some of the SAT optional schools.</p>
<p>I actually think one of the saddest parts of racially-based “affirmative action” is the kind of resentment it builds between different deserving groups. This exchange on CC is an example.</p>
<p>The truth remains that the NYT article stated that 85% of blacks at several elite schools are middle or upper-middle class background. This has to breed resentment in the deserving applicants from other groups who may have had less opportunity or the same stats and were rejected.</p>
<p>I think that the colleges are really too upfront about racial diversity to the exclusion of unity, esp the state universities. That breeds the anti-AA amendments, which some schools try to avoid.</p>
<p>You would also be hard pressed to find 100 black students in the freshman class at most of these schools.</p>
<p>I was pretty shocked at how pale admitted students days were at every school we visited. Our high school is 40% African American and 15% Hispanic. I sort of expect every place to look like it!</p>
<p>Actually, Sybbie, the class profile of admitted students at Harvard (1600+) sugests that the percentage of URMs is about the same as the percentage of Asian-Americans, each about 21% or 330 or so students.</p>
<p>Testing for understanding…</p>
<p>are you saying that there are 330 blacks in the freshman class at harvard or the 330 is the combined number of all URMs.</p>
<p>The class profile says slightly over 10% of the entering class is made up of African-Americans. That would come to about 160. The rest are Mexican-Americans, Puerto-Ricans, Latinos, Native Americans. Remember that Asian-Americans include everyone with of Japanese, Chinese, Korean, to Vietnamese, Cambodian, Hmong descent.</p>
<p>Here’s the link to the class of 2010 class profile:
<a href=“http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/counselors/stats/index.html[/url]”>http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/counselors/stats/index.html</a></p>
<p>I bet you the poor kid didn’t take an expensive SAT Prep course, costing thousands of dollars. I bet you the poor kid didn’t have a private tutor for the SATs like lots of wealthier children I teach do.</p>
<p>Wealthy kids have HUGE advantages over middle class kids; middle class kids have HUGE advantages over poor kids.</p>
<p>That is why economic diversity is important, but not racially based.</p>
<p>I agree with that - a wealthy African-American kid has more advantages than many of the kids that are here in upstate NY, from families who cannot even afford heat. </p>
<p>This discussion reminds me of “Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard,” in which Gray wonders if the graveyard of the poor and ignorant held a mute, inglorious Milton to whom Knowledge never unfurled her “ample page.” </p>
<p>Do we want to unfurl the pages of Knowledge to every capable young person, or just those born with privilege? That seems to be what Amherst is addressing.</p>
<p>coot66,
How does everyone in high school have the same opportunities?? If you live in Westchester, NY, all of your classmates are rich and white with educated parents. The school system spends approximately 20,000 per pupil per year, last time I looked - about 2 years ago.</p>
<p>Poorer districts in upstate NY are filled with kids whose parents often didn’t finish high school. They live in a trailer. They often have no heat. Their school system spends between 7 to 9000 per student, per year. The expectations are lower in school. The guidance counselors often don’t even know of the better schools that meet 100% of need to steer their brighter kids to them. </p>
<p>Student from Westchester gets an SAT course, and a tutor. Guidance spends hours with the student, making up lists of reach, ballpark and safety schools. Student from poor school has parents who cannot afford an SAT prep book and the guidance counselor just doesn’t know of many of the better schools. I see this all of the time in the schools I have worked in. </p>
<p>Student Westchester gets a 1450 SAT. Good for him or her. Student from poor school gets an 1100 to 1200. GREAT for him or her. I am convinced that the poor student’s score is actually the same or higher than the rich kid’s score. You cannot in any way, shape or form really just go by the numbers. </p>
<p>And to say that all kids have the same opportunities in high school is just, pardon my bluntness, ignorant of what high schools are like in different areas of the same state, nevertheless the entire country.</p>
<p>Adigal: I agree with you. However, for many of those kids with less opportunities, it would be so difficult for them to go to Amherst or a flagship university, that they would shortly be back home. The advising should be geared to their abilities and interests, and an opportunity to move academically up the ladder. This is what many states are doing with their programs that allow for easier transfers from community colleges to state universities.</p>
<p>Many of those students from the poor rural areas don’t even know about SATs and have no advising, as you are saying. I think that these kids are very overlooked, and that the schools and colleges need to really concentrate on getting them out of poverty.</p>
<p>I have always thought that The Gates Scholoarships are very unfair, because the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation gave a billion dollars for minority students only to get as grants, no poor whites need apply.</p>