Encouraging "gifted" students to branch out rather than just go up

Parents Forum
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I started to reply to a thread about a highly gifted child’s options in regard to starting college at age 16. I realized my response didn’t belong in that thread since it didn’t really address the OP’s situation. But I just had to post what came flowing out…

I’m an elementary school principal in a high achieving suburban school district. There are many parents who come in telling me how their gifted child needs to be challenged, how their child is bored in math, how the child absolutely must be accelerated starting in kindergarten. It’s true that many of these children could do more advanced academic work (although not all - parents don’t always recognize there are many other “gifted” students out there and their own child actually might not be at the top of the pack). And yes, our US public school system does not always provide a lot of differentiation, most notably in math. We have room to improve.

However, why do kids always have to go “up”? When I was in elementary school, the school suggested I skip a grade. My parents asked my former kindergarten teacher whose opinion they highly valued. She suggested they say no. Instead of pushing me “up”, she advised they help me grow “out” (Thank you!). Don’t skip to middle school level books in elementary school, but instead read different kinds of books. Explore biographies. Read about science. Really study everything you can about a certain country. Delve into a topic and run with it. This is fun and exciting learning! And kids can bring those books in and read them during the school day during independent reading times. They can share during snack time a presentation or project completed at home. There are ways to make connections between outside learning and the regular school day other than asking a classroom teacher who is already spending Saturdays doing planning for 24 other students to correct extra worksheets which are kind of meaningless to start with. Parents are in such a hurry to get their child into that advanced math class. Why??? Introduce your child to math beyond the curriculum, like different base systems, probability, etc. Dive into coding! Kids now have the internet with tons of ideas available (but please supervise them online). And what about the arts?? Learn an instrument, study art, practice calligraphy, etc.

I’d also like to add that I have never met a child who did not have some area in which they could stand to grow (just like us adults). Sure, they may be experts at doing long division in their heads and reading Harry Potter at age 5 (totally inappropriate series for this age, by the way, but a common claim by parents eager to tell me how bright their child is). But are they able to work well with others? Often the academically advanced student struggles with self-control, interpersonal relationships, etc. Or being humble.

In fact, while home-schooling provides many opportunities for children to learn in ways I described above, I actually think learning how to get along with others is more important than any advanced math content, which is why I think it’s worth being a little bored in a second grade math class while interacting and engaging with peers. Google recently shared a study they did which reinforces this idea: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/answer-sheet/wp/2017/12/20/the-surprising-thing-google-learned-about-its-employees-and-what-it-means-for-todays-students/?utm_term=.f09192d09a98

So, yes, have your child take advantage of appropriately advanced classes at school when they are available, like accelerating ahead to algebra in 8th grade and taking AP classes. But please, let’s raise happy, balanced children. There’s much more to life than starting college at 16.

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We also found TONS of community and precollege resources for our musically talented kid. We didn’t expect the school to jump through hoops…although I will say…the HS music teachers were fabulous!

Still…lots of options outside of school to enrich the talents of just about any kid.

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There are some very young kids who are in college upper upper level across subjects in STEM, humanity, writing and all. Whatever they could grow is not in high school or even community college level.

Now, for lopsided kids, some of them can’t possibly be happy unless then are allowed to pursue where they have the strength, and they would be miserable if they are forced to hold of their passion and meanwhile study something else.

Of course, there are also kids that fit your description, and are just doing what you suggest. Parents of gifted kids these days are often well informed and know what’s best for their kids.

True for some. And out of question for some others. In either ways’s it’s personal decision of the gifted kids and their families who knows them the best, and I don’t think it’s what outsiders should even discuss.

They come in all different levels of giftedness and intensity. There can’t possibly be a general approach that works for the majority of them.

Also, “learning how to get along with others” might NOT be useful or achievable when the others are 6 years old with undeveloped morality and sense of justice but you are as mature as as teens with 6 years old body. In such situation, it might beneficial in the long term to postpone the getting along for a few years.

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For a million years gifted 10 year olds did not study Calculus. It didn’t exist. So why would a 2017 gifted 10 year old be miserable not studying Calculus?

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Because a 2017 gifted 10 year old already mastered pre-calc and has a burning desire to learn more on that subject, and wants to use it to calculate solar energy’s feasibility.

For a million years 10 year olds did not belong in classroom and were not asked to mainly interact with age peers. Why would a 2017 10 year old kid belong in classroom with age peers?

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I’m a parent of a gifted kid who took algebra in 6th grade and now is taking multivariate calculus as a junior and doing research in applied math. This possibility was one of the reasons he went to a charter middle school. In 5th grade, he was allowed to go and watch Khan Academy videos during math lessons.

I think you’re right in many ways and kids absolutely need to go wide rather than just trying to get ahead in all subjects. However, I don’t think being bored during class and having to do lots of too-easy problems is good for kids. They may help their classmates out and this is a good thing, but ultimately they’re in school to learn, not to teach, and shouldn’t be used by teachers as convenient unpaid assistants while relying completely on parents (who have jobs themselves) to provide intellectual challenges. Teachers don’t leave it all to parents when dealing with a child who’s struggling in class. And there are easy ways to let gifted kids actually learn something new every day in school too, like Khan Academy. Well, maybe not in kindergarten. I agree completely that during the first couple years of school it’s more important to learn social and organizational skills.

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@SculptorDad Thank you for your thoughtful post. I find it exasperating when discussion of gifted kids delves into posters’ own personal experiences, as if their own experience or observations are applicable to others.

These paragraphs are spot on:

"True for some. And out of question for some others. In either ways’s it’s personal decision of the gifted kids and their families who knows them the best, and I don’t think it’s what outsiders should even discuss.

They come in all different levels of giftedness and intensity. There can’t possibly be a general approach that works for the majority of them.

Also, “learning how to get along with others” might NOT be useful or achievable when the others are 6 years old with undeveloped morality and sense of justice but you are as mature as as teens with 6 years old body. In such situation, it might beneficial in the long term to postpone the getting along for a few years."

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Our district of 26,000 students had six kids in Algebra 1 in sixth grade in my younger daughter’s year. They progressed through geometry in 7th, A2 in 8th and pre-calc in 9th. They all started Calc AP in tenth. Five of them have now dropped it. Mine will try again next year.

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It is so much easier for a school administrator to educate everyone at the same rate. I am firmly conviced that eventually K-12 education will be much more tailored to where each student is vs where the teacher wants the class to be. More computerized learning (still in a classroom with a teacher to oversee and help, and some classwide activities still) would be so much more efficient than what we do today.

I remember my happiest times in elementary school – one year we had this box of reading cards with articles on them with associated questions. Kind of like SAT questions, I guess. :wink: Everyone had to work to a certain point in the box (maybe halfway by the end of the year). I flew through the box and finished the last ones, which were 12th grade level reading & analysis. I was the only one who thought they were fun and did them all. I also remember getting my older brother’s math book and working all the story problems in the back until they were done.

But in 4th grade, my teacher accused me of cheating because I tested at 12th grade level on a standard reading test. His comment to principal: “I couldn’t get that score on this test!” My (impolitic) answer: “That doesn’t mean I cheated. Maybe I am smarter than you are.”

The main point is that I spent a lot of time just sitting in class waiting for everyone else to finish. It was boring. I read a lot, which I like, but that isn’t really the point of classroom time. Learning a little patience is good – but this happened A LOT. I could have had a richer, more productive education experience by a mile.

Oh, and once my 6 year old got harassed in school by other students because she was talking quietly to herself, reciting the Gettysburg Address (which she had memorized). Being with age peers really wasn’t all it was cracked up to be by adults who just want the ease of scheduling age groups together.

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@VickiSoCal,

I might understand where you are coming from. Some parents push advanced math to their normal or mildly gifted kids for more harm than benefit.

There are kids who love and excel on multi variable calc and calc based physics sequence or organic chem at that age. I know several of such kids in my area. You can’t push them into college classes. The kids said that’s their favorite activity.

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Out of 2000 in their class district wide about 100 were placed in GATE dedicated classrooms. Of these 100 six were placed in super accelerated math track. That’s a pretty small number and they likely were not just mildy gifted.

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I agree, in principle, with what a lot of OP says, but I don’t think that most public schools are in any way set up for this sort of “branching out.” My own kids are super smart but were technically not considered “gifted,” (because to be “gifted” in our public elementary school, you had to also have some behavioral issues or problem fitting in–if you were likable and did your work on time, they didn’t figure you were gifted, but that’s another issue…) Anyway, they were bored out of their skulls in elementary school. They were basically either turned into TA’s, which is NOT developmentally appropriate, or were just shoved to the sidelines, esp. in math, because they “got it” too quickly. In 4th and 5th grade, D was put in a group with three other kids and made to work “independently” on dittoed math packets (which meant my husband taught her math for 2 hours every night, after working a nine hour day). She had no credentialed teacher interacting with her for two straight years in public school. Son was told to “go play on the iPad” after he finished the math in five minutes. So he spent 45 minutes a day playing video games while the other kids did math. When he asked if he could play chess with another smart kid instead, he was told no. Screentime only. We got fed up and shelled out for private school–schools, by the way, that don’t believe in accelerating any curriculum, but deepen it for everyone who needs it, quietly and without special status attached to it. It was a really hard decision to leave public schools because we were super active in the schools, volunteered all the time, are in theory committed to public education, etc. But we had to work two long-hour jobs to afford to live in that “good” public school district, and it just didn’t seem to be livable to have to essentially homeschool them in most of the core subjects in the evenings. I know this is anecdotal, but I know of many public school districts that have similar problems with addressing the needs of a range of kids. It does seem like they figure they have to accommodate those who are struggling, but those who are bored aren’t as pressing of a need. My whole family is public school teachers, as am I, so I’m not a hater…just sad that the system isn’t working the way it’s set up now.

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Perhaps I should add that reading and writing instruction has come a long way since the '70s and '80s. Long gone are those reading cards and questions that every student used. We also don’t use round robin reading with the same book for all students. Nowadays we assess each student using running records to find their instructional and independent reading level. Each child then has a box of “just right” (not too hard, not too easy) books to read at their desk for the primary grades, or a novel/non-fiction book for the intermediate grades. Writing instruction is much better as well with teachers utilizing mentor texts to model how to write a hook for narrative writing, and second graders forming a hypothesis as they write a lab report while building a slingshot for the informational writing unit. The Common Core requires students to engage in a balance of narrative, informational, and opinion for both writing and reading units. Things have changed a lot.

I agree that math instruction isn’t as flexible in terms of meeting students where they are. Some of our elementary teachers do break students out into leveled groups based on pre-testing before starting a unit. But because math requires pre-requisites and more of a linear approach (e.g. you can’t teach multiplication until addition has been mastered), it is trickier to differentiate it.

Many districts are using computers, chrome book, and ipads so students can do some things at their own pace. Teachers are using Google docs and slides in the classroom for writing and projects where students work together.

And when I say it’s important that students learn how to work together, I am not advocating that the advanced students are the ones always teaching their lower level peers. Yes, sometimes this is a good thing. But navigating a kickball game at recess and deciding who gets to read first when you are partner reading and working out who is going to be the time keeper/note-taker/speaker for group projects was more what I was alluding to. Developing these soft skills is important.

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There were 13 kids in my son’s 8th grade Algebra 2. Some of them are in his math class now, some stayed behind, but at least half are still his good friends several years later. Before this class he was a shy kid who had trouble finding friends. There is an important social dimension to advancement.

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@Springbird,

Would it be acceptable for a high school freshmen to take same classes with seniors and learn how to work together for lab projects? How about a dual enrolled 12 yo doing the same with college kids, if the younger kids contribute equally or more on the projects?

Wouldn’t the skill learned this way be just as good in their later professional life?

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D1 taught herself soft skills when she was in middle school because that was the only way she could fit in socially and make friends. What she learned at the time was that she had to dumb herself down. She entered a high school where students had to test at or above the 99.9th percentile in IQ for entry, and her social life got much better. She had a lot of extracurricular activity outside of the school environment, so there were many opportunities for growth in non-academics. But without having an academic environment where she could not only flourish but also not have to hide her light under a bushel, I don’t think she would have grown as much.

When D1 was in 1st or 2nd grade, our school district ran a highly standardized reading program where all of the children in the class read these horrid little books with no plot or humor. D1 and some friends were reading waaaay beyond that level–yes, Harry Potter, which back then was early enough in the series that it was indeed appropriate for a young child. I asked if the kids who were already fluent eager readers could read something else, and was told no, the plan was for those children to read the same small booklet multiple times so that they could increase their reading speed and fluency.

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As someone who read Harry Potter at age 5, I think the “inappropriate” stuff went over my head.

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I agree whole heartedly. I have a profoundly gifted son who will be graduating in 2019 at age 18. We pulled him to homeschool after 1st grade after trying to get into a gifted magnet and not getting selected in the lottery. He is dual enrolling junior and senior year. I know this is not an option to everyone but it worked great for this kid. Deep and wide has been great for him. Not pigeon holing him too early has been great too. He also has some extra curricular activities that have been great for him.

The other thing about grade skipping a younger child is you just don’t know what puberty will look like for a young kid. I know several people in the GT world who’ve undone grade skips and skipped boys who needed a gap year after high school but then didn’t have great momentum for college. I know parents with regrets. But I do wish the school systems would differentiate much more and I don’t just mean for GT kids. Most schools fail their gifted kids horribly especially at the elementary level. I’m on a device at the moment but I will try to come back to this. It’s a topic near and dear to my heart and I regularly lead and teach groups of GT kids.

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We are lucky to have a good school system. They test all kids in two different grades (in case one had a bad day) and don’t rely on teacher or parent recommendations. They don’t accept private testing or parents who push for their kids to get in. They GATE classrooms are dedicated through 6th grade and then dedicated for core subjects in 7/8 grade and the kids are allowed to explore really widely and develop social skills. My kid was one of those testing at above high school reading level in early elementary but this was so much better for her than simple acceleration. On the math side, I regret letting her accelerate a little too fast rather than exploring more. She did do math team and Sci Oly, but burned out on it.

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My offspring attended one of the best known public schools for gifted kids. The most gifted mathematician could take the square root of 3 digit numbers in his head before he started kindergarten. You can’t just tell a kid like that “go read.” BTW, he did read a lot. And, he was a very nice kid. By the time he finished high school, he had finished enough undergrad math courses at Columbia to complete its requirements for a math major. He then went off to Harvard, where as a sophomore he was a TA and received a prize for best teaching by a math TA. (Most of his competitors were grad students.) BTW, he chose Harvard over MIT because he wanted a broader education.

He had other interests and pursued them. But reality is that mathematical ability is something that peaks at a very young age, and if it isn’t pushed early on, it’s unlikely that the person will achieve his full potential. My mind is blanking, but there’s a famous Indian from a lower caste who went to grad school at Cambridge for mathematics. He had worked out some very advanced proofs on his own, and these proofs got him into Cambridge. But, he was so far behind when he arrived at Cambridge that he was merely “average” among grad students there. His professors all shook their heads and said something like “If only he had been given a chance earlier, he would have been the best mathematician of his generation!”

A lot of people who think their kids are gifted are fooling themselves. But…there are some kids who are truly gifted…like my D’s kindergarten classmate who could figure out the square root of 3 digit numbers in his head. It would have been a HUGE mistake to tell him not to push forward.