Ethics Question About How Many Applications

Parents Forum
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<p>No need to beat this dead horse, as its been battered around over an over here. And the writers of these articles do a far better job addressing the issue, and since the links are now on a previous pg, I will repost them. They’re worth a read:
<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/01/13/admissions[/url]”>http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2009/01/13/admissions&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools”>College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools;

<p><a href=“http://www.newsweek.com/id/83159/page/1[/url]”>http://www.newsweek.com/id/83159/page/1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-04-09-student-applications_N.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-04-09-student-applications_N.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>For some reason the titles arent showing up-- they do in post # 198</p>

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<p>BTW, I got an email back from the head of the HS’s college counseling office, who said they still maintain the policy of 6 schools, with the opportunity to add 2 more after all is said and done. I take that to mean if the student wants to apply to more than 8, thats where the extra fee comes in. I also noticed there is a new (additional) college counselor (totalling 4) for a graduating class of about 250. They are very knowledgeable about schools, finances, etc. that the HS is fortunate to have and to provide to the students/family.</p>

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<p>And I’d suggest posters read through the last few pages to see the many posts de-bunking what would be for many kids be a foolish, foolish choice. But thanks for beating that drum loudly. If had more time I’d put up the links. :wink: </p>

<p>Again. CC posters and lurkers. **You know your family. You know your needs. Don’t let anybody make you feel bad about doing the right thing for your family. ** I applaud your efforts on behalf of your kids. </p>

<p>And I can’t help thinking if Jym met my “just battled cancer”, “dead-beat husband ran-off during chemo” “recently came through a Chapter 13” sister and her “technical theatre” inclined niece, you might actually understand how horrible these suggestions are. At least I certainly hope so. This just isn’t like you, jym.</p>

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<p>Your sis married to John Edwards or Newt Gingrich?? :D</p>

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<p>Thinking practically, this is a large consumer purchase - second only to my house in terms of size. I wouldn’t restrict myself to “only” looking at X houses, so I wouldn’t see a need to restrict myself to “only” looking at X schools. Whatever it is, is what it is. As for having only a certain number of safeties - the only true safety is the one where you’re already accepted. I see nothing wrong with having a handful of safety apps out there, safeties are not guaranteed these days. My state flagship used to be an excellent safety and it is no longer.</p>

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<p>jym, that would be much superior to the truck-driver bum to whom she was hitched. I could have hammered them in the dee-vorce and I could be with the crowd “demonizing” these over 6-8-10 app kids and their families. If my fee was big enough, that is. ;)</p>

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<p>

Pun intended?</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl,
Agree that buyers look at lots and lots and lots of houses. But the can only put a contract on one.</p>

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<p>Mudge-
Why didnt your sis’s kid apply to Questbridge??</p>

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<p>lol, jym. I wish it were. Sis is a survivor though. In more ways than one. And the kid is in a good place.</p>

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<p>Questbridge? May have been a good idea. But our way got her into a school that was a huge reach financially, with great aid, in a well-respected program , in a city that was her second-choice. Pretty dang good results and it simply would not have been a school she could have applied to with limited apps. Far too risky admit.</p>

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<p>

The analogy breaks down here, however, because home buyers don’t have a finite period during which they must either successfully complete a home purchase or wait another year to try again, with potential significant disruption to their lives. An offer on a house is analogous, if anything, to an ED application.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Oh, no–you only get three houses! Haven’t you seen “House Hunters” on HGTV? Great show! A couple looks at three houses with a real estate agent. Which one will they buy? No! Not the Cape Cod–pick the rancher with the big back yard! Then we check in on them a few months later after the boxes are unpacked and the baby is born.</p>

<p>I can see it now–“College Hunters!” We tag along with little Suzy as she tours three colleges. Which one will she pick? No! Not the state school with the attractive price tag–pick the top 20 with the active Greek scene! We check in with her after a year to find out what she’s majoring in and if she’s rushing.</p>

<p>Actually, I think this idea would sell. I want royalties.</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl: “I see nothing wrong with having a handful of safety apps out there, safeties are not guaranteed these days.”</p>

<p>^^ That’s true. When my son had finished putting in his 19 apps thru the guidance office, I emailed his (very patient!) counselor in a panic: “does he have any safeties here?” She replied: “this year, there are so many applicants, nothing is guaranteed.” She even cautioned that our state flagship was rumored to have tightened its gpa cut-off (this would have been bad news for son!).</p>

<p>Ultimately he got 11 acceptances & a good bit of merit money but – while GC was a little surprised by his number of apps – she never said son had even one safety in the mix, let alone several. </p>

<p>Those are not the kind of odds I’d mess with re: my child’s future, by limiting his applications or having a school do that for him. Additionally, I wouldn’t advise other kids to limit their choices in this fashion.</p>

<p>Moreover – re: an earlier post-- I think “Ilovetoquilt” said she would (I believe?) not let her child apply to certain schools. I took a different approach. Son initially wanted to apply to schools in CA (sun! beach! beautiful girls! far from home!). I told him the CA schools he was looking at were notorious for not giving much (if any) aid OOS. Additionally, the academic standards would make his gpa a good-sized stumbling block to admission. </p>

<p>But–I did not forbid him to apply. USC was the first app he filled out & paid for it on his own credit card! When he got rejected, it was something that just happened – I wasn’t the one to rain on his parade or control him – just as he was about to take those big steps out into the world. I think that was helpful in preventing a lot of regrets along the lines of “if mom had only let me…” I was glad to avoid that (at least in the college app aspect of things!). Others might have a different approach, but that worked for us.</p>

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<p>^^^^ This speaks to the beauty (whenever possible) ov visiting colleges before applying. My younger s also thought he wanted to go to school in So Cal (wanted to be able to ski in the morning and go to the beach in the afternoon, like thats a reason to appy!!!). We said fine-- you want to work hard enough to get into the Claremont colleges, great!! He read about them in my favorite book (Insiders Guide) and thought they’d be a great fit. He also was very interested in USC and knew as a NMF (well, semifinalist at the time we visited) that he’d have a guaranteed big scholarship.Thought he’d be applying to at least 2 of the Claremont colleges and USC. We visited. He decided CA was probably not for him. He was going to apply to one of the Claremont colleges (all other CA schools came off his list) but when he got into his safety with $$ early, he never finished the application. As said earlier-- if we hadn’t looked at colleges first, both s’s application list would have been much longer. No restrictions were put on any schools they wanted to apply to. they self selected once we visited. Neither s applied to a school they hadn’t seen first.</p>

<p>*** Dad’O2-- great idea. What was the name of the reality/game show a few yrs back of students from top colleges (or about to go to top colleges)-- winner got their tution paid. Winner was from Pomona. Help, someone?</p>

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<p>^^ That’s certainly good plan, if feasible. In our case, we live on the east coast. No way we could have sprung for 2 or 3 roundtrip plane tickets, hotels, cabfare, etc. on the strength of such a long-shot (financial & admission-wise) as USC.</p>

<p>Same thing w/U of TX (1200 miles away). Much cheaper to fill out the $50 app then to book two $300 plane tickets & a $100 hotel room! :slight_smile: We definitely visited UT Austin, however, after acceptance was in hand.</p>

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<p>jym626: that was #1 son’s first choice: ski and surf in a single day. I hauled him to Santa Barbara (mostly because I LOVE Santa Barbara and needed an ‘excuse’). A wonderful, wonderful admissions officer took some time to talk to a goofy junior and point out the odds that he would actually get into a UC as an OSS student even with a 3.5 (uw). That pretty much took care of Skiing and Surfing in the same day. We looked at Occidental, but he never completed his application. Now he’s in his junior year and he’s casually looking for law schools (where he could surf). Gotta love his determination. And yes, I love the “show” idea LOL just think over the course of 13 episodes you could “see” 30 some colleges.</p>

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<p>Understood, Jolynne. We are fortunate to live in a big city with an airline hub, so can often get cheap airfare, and I watch for the airfare deals carefully. We also started college visits for older s spring break of jr yr and tied them to family visits (my family in the NE and DHs family out west). The So Cal visits were tied to a last family vacation (older s joined us from his college) - also a spring break (younger s’s jr yr). Speaking of breaks, thats when older s broke his femur, which put a cramp on the college visits (though they still got accomplished). Tying college visits to vacations worked well for us. When older s looked at Dartmouth and Williams, we hit the nearby slopes as well.</p>

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<p>Aha!! The show was called “The Scholar” and aired in 2005 [The</a> Scholar Episode Guide - AOL Television](<a href=“http://television.aol.com/show/the-scholar/762024/episodes]The”>http://television.aol.com/show/the-scholar/762024/episodes)
But I digress. Sounds like our kids must be related, momofthreeeboys. Pomona actually has a day where they ski in the morning and go to the beach in the afternoon. And they do a serious cholcoloholics exam study break. Sounded like a match made in heaven for DS. DS’s reaction when he saw it? Too many skateboarders :(</p>

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<p>. . . from this thread re: number of applications.</p>

<p>First, we’ve all got to do what’s right for our family. In the same way that using national school rankings to select a school MUST be evaluated in light of an individual student’s needs, the optimal number of applications is dependent upon the family’s needs. There is no national standard answer to the question: how many applications should my student submit.</p>

<p>Second, here are the most common drivers that increase the number of applications:</p>

<pre><code>* Increasing the pool of financial aid offers

  • Student is interested in wider range of types of institutions
  • Student is interested in wider range of geographic locations
  • Help for the family to assess best college “fit” has been less than optimal
  • Student is interested primarily in exceptionally low acceptance rate schools, where the chances of acceptance are less dependent on meeting a set of objective academic based criteria
  • Students and/or parents want bragging rights
    </code></pre>

<p>All but the last one seem valid. The last one makes me want to gag because the parents of those kids have failed to teach their children good moral behavior. Yeech!</p>

<p>Since the cost of college is so high, many people have increased the number of applications in order to maximize their ability to reduce the net cost of education, and they’ve received markedly different offers of aid from schools that seemed similar in most other ways. That combination - high costs plus similar schools offering different levels of aid to the same kind of student - drives the number of applications higher, and many times rewards families for submitting what historically would be considered a large number of applications.</p>

<p>That driver is much less important to the extent parents are less concerned about merit aid: if you’re not searching for the best merit aid deal, the payoff for a large number of applications is much less.</p>

<p>Parents interested in reducing the number of application can do so by delving more deeply into the type of institution and the geographic location. For example, if my CA student is interested in small progressive LACs and has Bard and Pitzer and Hampshire and Reed on their lists, some questioning about whether they really want to live a) back east or B) in snow may help to reduce the list; perhaps a campus visit in winter of junior year would help :-)</p>

<p>But to the extent that the student is not able to hone their selection process that finely, in interested in many kinds of schools in many locations, or just hasn’t made up their mind yet, a larger number of applications would be needed to keep all those schools in play.</p>

<p>Last, some commenters said that the GC and CC services they received at their kids’; high schools were less than they’d expected. Ideally, counseling services would help each student and family evaluate the type of institution (e.g., large/small/rural/urban/specific major/wider range of majors) and would know enough about specific colleges to provide well-considered advise for best fit. In practice, one or more of those components can be lacking. To the extent parents can make up for that service gap themselves (say, through extensive use of College Confidential) they would need more applications to keep more schools in play. To the extent that college counseling services provide all that assistance (and more, such as Naviance-style statistics that relate a student’s academic performance and standardized test scores to the acceptance record of similar students at specific schools) parents may need fewer applications, because they have those questions already answered.</p>

<p>The topic of multiple HYPed schools’ applications has showed up on other threads: given low acceptance rates at those schools, why wouldn’t one apply to as many as possible to increase the chances of acceptance to one of “those” schools. As one poster said, it’s eye-opening to look at HYPed schools’ REJECTION statistics (e.g., Princeton rejected 3/4 of applicants with SAT scores 2300 and above [Princeton</a> University | Admission Statistics](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/]Princeton”>http://www.princeton.edu/admission/applyingforadmission/admission_statistics/) ); when it’s hard to see the data that supports acceptance decisions, it’s risky to put all of one’s eggs in one basket. So even if a family believes “it’s HYPed or bust” one also should have safety schools. (Why anyone would think that all those different HYPed schools are equally good fits fro their kids is another topic.)</p>

<p>I came into this discussion thinking that more than 6-8 applications was ridiculous. Now I know why some families need to have more applications out there, and that it many times has little to do with vanity and “mania:” and many times has everything to do with making sure that the family is able to do their right thing for the students and the parents. That’s why I like CC: I always learn something!!!</p>

<p>Kei</p>