Ethics Question About How Many Applications

Parents Forum
241

<p>Interesting and enlightening discussion.</p>

<p>I always wonder if private schools encourage their students to apply to many schools so they can print the longest list of “scholarships our students have won.”</p>

<p>I get slightly annoyed by these newspaper ads that say “our graduates won X million dollars in scholarships.” You know and I know that the students can only accept offers from one school, but does the average person think about that? Or are they duly impressed by the students at Hoity Toity private school? (Who by the way also SPENT X million dollars in tuition to go there?) ;)</p>

242

<p>

How so? Aren’t there considerable (and to some extent unpredictable) differences between institutions in need-based aid as well as merit aid?</p>

243

<p>mommusic-</p>

<p>As I’ve been posting ad nauseum, our “hoity toity” school does just the opposite-- it limits the # of schools a student can apply to encourages no more than 6-8 applications. Any more needs to be justified and costs $50 per additional application. And I’ve never seen any private school around here posts its scholarship $$ in the newspaper (and we are some or the rare few that actually still get and read the daily paper). I did find the info on our s’s school’s website, though.</p>

<p>And I am philosophically a believer in public school. But I live in a state whose educational system is ranked in the bottom 3 or so. We tried the public school where we lived when older s started kindergarten. One year was enough. We are big supporters of education and were willing to pay for it.</p>

244

<p>At my daughters public school they don’t limit them - even though there are 450 students in the senior class. DD’s counselor suggested that she apply to 12-14 schools since financial/merit aid is such a huge factor for us - she is the one that got us thinking about expanding the original smaller list. Now, there are 3 schools that are “reach” schools, the rest of them are matches or safties as far as acceptance goes, and all but one are in southern california so we are not chasing any trophies or name recognition.</p>

245

<p>nightchef said: “How so? Aren’t there considerable (and to some extent unpredictable) differences between institutions in need-based aid as well as merit aid?”</p>

<p>Yes. </p>

<p>There are schools that provide no merit aid and those that do.</p>

<p>I would think that schools that provide merit aid will have the differences in need-based aid subsumed within the total aid package. wrapped together. In other words, for those schools the total aid package is what one is after, and any differences in solely need-based aid are lumped in as part of a net aid package?</p>

<p>If that’s true , then one needs no additional apps to take care of that point? </p>

<p>For schools that do not provide merit aid, your point holds.</p>

<p>I wonder how much difference there really is among need-based aid packages from schools that provide no merit aid . . .</p>

<p>Kei</p>

246

<p>

Exactly–and therefore, there will be no substantial difference in uncertainty about the bottom line between students who qualify for merit aid and those who don’t. The part of your earlier post that I quoted above would be just as true (and more comprehensively true) with the word “merit” removed and replaced with “financial.” That was all I was driving at.</p>

247

<p>Have to agree with JYM here. Our private school GC has suggested 6-8 schools, although they don’t put any limits or penalties on applying to more. </p>

<p>College prep schools do try to develop good relationships with colleges, and that means doing a lot of managing expectations with the students. They lose credibility if they have a million kids applying to a school who are underqualified or aren’t seriously considering attending. If ours boasts about anything, it’s that they get kids into their first choice school.</p>

<p>Also, in my experience private schools do far less in the way of publishing achievements or showcasing students awards than do the public schools.</p>

248

<p>Doesn’t merit money and aid money come out of different budget “pots” at most colleges??</p>

<p>BTW, very good point, quilah

</p>

249

<p>

Perhaps administratively they do, but what matters from the student’s point of view is that merit aid is taken into account in awarding need-based aid packages. If your need is $20K and you get a $10K scholarship, then your maximum need-based aid package will be $10K, not $20K. At least, this is what we have been told during the info sessions at every school that addressed the issue, and most of them did. </p>

<p>What has never been made clear to me in these sessions, though, is whether getting merit aid increases your chances of getting your full need met; in other words, if Harry and Sally both have $20K of need, Harry gets $10K in merit aid and Sally gets $0, and the college only has $25K left in the need-based aid pot, will Harry get $10K and Sally $15K, or will they split the shortfall evenly (Harry gets $7.5K and Sally gets $17.5K)?</p>

250

<p>^^ If the school is one that offers 100% of demonstrated need, then they might need to hold a garage sale in order to offer the full need to both students. If the school offers, say 75% of demonstrated need, they may fill in the rest with loans or work study, perhaps.</p>

251

<p>

</p>

<p>The differences can be huge. </p>

<p>Colleges all use different methods to compute need-based aid. In our D’s case who only applied to schools without merit aid (except for her safety), FA offers ranged from all loans to all grants. Total FA amounts ranged from $5,000 to $30,000/year. Our EFC was generally a very poor predictor of actual aid. Even colleges with FA calculators on their web site were often way off initial estimates. </p>

<p>There is no such thing as a financial safety in the need-based world. As a general rule, the schools with the biggest endowments were also the most generous but they were also the most selective. Second tier or slightly less selective schools were often far less generous and tended to pad the FA offer with loans. Most will review “special circumstances” upon appeal, which is completely discretionary and can make a substantial difference. (50% increase in our case). If they want you, they definitely have plenty of wiggle room.</p>

252

<p>What year did your kiddo start college, cellardweller? I ask b/c xiggi commented elsewhere how difficult it will be in this economic climate to get schools to match competing offers, especially the very competitive schools. If you were fortunate to get that, even as recent as last year, thats great. I agree with xiggi that that will be harder to come by until the economy improves and funding/endowments/ etc improve.</p>

253

<p>At my Ds school and pretty much all the private, independent schools in our area, the bay area, there is either a set limit, or a highly encouraged limit, or the kid needs to meet with GC to explain why they need to apply to more than say, 6-8 schools.</p>

<p>They really help the students narrow down the list, making sure that the schools are good fits, that there is a good balance of reach, match, safety, etc. </p>

<p>By fit, the kids are pushed to look at a few of those different website that help match you up with schools, by asking questions having to do with size, location, major, public private, etc. At these free websites, which are accessible to all kids, private or public, you really get a chance to look at yourself as an applicant and learn what you find important. What matters. And what may bug you down the road. My Ds were both able to come up with great lists of schools, about 8 each. Then they looked again, dropped a couple, applied to some early, and then dropped more. They both applied to 5 I think. Got into 4, rejected at one each. And they really could see themselves at all 4.The two they dropped, after looking again, their was something at each school that would have made them nuts after a year. </p>

<p>I think kids really need to be honest with themselves and their parents need to as well, when they make those longs lists of school to apply to.</p>

<p>Do each of those schools give you 75% or more of what you are looking for? Have you looked at yourself like a whole person, not just a football player or engineering major, are you outdoorsy, do you hate the cold, if the campus is quiet on weekends, is that okay, if I can’t play football anymore or want to change my major, will this school still be right for me, at least 75% right. Is there one thing about that school on my list, that would make me nuts- ie, no sports and maybe I do want something with some school spirit kind of thing-</p>

<p>These have to do with quality of life, and college is more than a major or classes or $, you need to look at the whole person and the whole school. And I think if people did that, their lists might be a bit shorter</p>

254

<p>^^^^^^^^^</p>

<p>So how much merit aid were you looking for?</p>

<p>Reason I asked is that in your para about fit $ weren’tta consideration . . . </p>

<p>Kei</p>

255

<p>jm626:</p>

<p>Our appeal was based on a review of all special circumstances not specifically on matching another offer. The other offer helped insofar as it showed some potential rationale for review and that is was not a frivolous request.</p>

<p>We appealed again this year when she had to renew her FA. They again revised their offer. </p>

<p>Contrary to Xiggi’s statement, we have found that the last thing that colleges (at least the most selective ones) have cut this year is financial aid. At her college, the FA budget increased another 5% for both new and current students because of the poor economy.</p>

256

<p>

</p>

<p>I believe that mini has posted that the difference for his D was $20k from need-only, no merit colleges. Of course, that doesn’t mean that need-based, no merit colleges won’t practice preferential packaging, i.e., more grant $ the more that they want you. NYU and George Washington are known for this, as I’m sure are others. OTOH, even tho a college may offer merit money (and lots of it), they may not necessarily meet 100% of need otherwise. Thus, a need-only school may offer more grant $ than a merit + need school assuming that the applicant doesn’t win the big merit prize (full ride). Such examples are Miami and Tulane.</p>

257

<p>

</p>

<p>Okay, I’ll bite…</p>

<p>My son goes to a ‘Hoity Toity’ private college prep school. They recommend 6-8 applications (more or less depending upon each particular student’s mix of reaches, etc). They don’t limit the number of applications nor do they push anyone to apply to a certain # of colleges but considering they meet with each student individually several times in 11th grade and then weekly in the senior year from the 1st week of school until the last application is filed, they do have a lot of input into how many and where the kids apply. </p>

<p>They do publish how much each class gets in scholarship money. It’s a big reason why so many people send their kids to the school. (Which, by the way, is only 8$k -$15k a year depending on the grade - not millions).</p>

<p>Academically, the school is far superior to our local public schools. To give you an example, my son’s class of 63 had 10 National Merit Semi-finalists this year. There were only 23 students who made it in our county’s entire public school system of 14 high schools and thousands of the students. </p>

<p>Colleges know that our students have had a academically rigorous education and they take that into account when looking at applications from our schools. That makes them very attractive to a lot of colleges.THAT is why the kids get millions of dollars in scholarship offers, even though they can only attend one school. The colleges are competing for our students.</p>

258

<p>

Kei, which post & poster is this in response to? I’m getting a bit of vertigo here, there are so many simultaneous sub-conversations in this thread…:)</p>

<p>If it’s me, we’re not really looking for any merit aid; of course we’d be happy to have it, but we’re assuming that it will not be a major piece of the puzzle at most of the schools our son is applying to, thanks to his middling GPA. We’re hitching our wagon to the star of need-based aid, and hoping there will be at least a few schools where it doesn’t turn out to be a white dwarf.</p>

259

<p>Mommusic - at the “Hoity Toity private school” I work at, we do not publicize the amount of scholarship dollars earned by our students except to our parent community. And probably much to your chagrin, we ONLY count $'s earned at the school the student will be attending. If we did not the number would be at least 5 times as high, probably more. My guess is most ethical and honest private schools do it the same way we do but I can not say for sure.</p>

<p>FWIW - this past year, the average merit aid earned per each graduating senior was over $50K (that is a four year number - so over $12,500 a year for 4 years). These ranged from full rides to no merit award</p>

<p>We have some good public schools in our area, but academically we blow them out of the water. Our stats prove that. And the colleges know we have a very rigorous curriculum. Hence, the reason why our students are awarded so much in scholarship $</p>

260

<p>Nightchef-</p>

<p>My question was directed to “Ilovetoquilt22” because he/she was making a case for shorter lists but did not include merit aid in the “fit” discussion.</p>

<p>More generally, the folks who advocate 6-8 seem to either have a private school behind them (a la Momlive) or appear not to consider merit aid as a reason to apply for more schools (a la Ilovetoquilt22). </p>

<p>In other words, looks to me like SES is the biggest driver of increasing applications: if the colleges won’t negotiate and one needs a lot of aid and the colleges calculate need-based aid differently and offer wildly different levels of merit aid, why in the world would I restrict myself to 6-8 applications?</p>

<p>Kei</p>

<p>P.S. Those little ^^^^^ marks mean “I’m referring to the poster above me” . . but they are incorrect when one is composing in Advanced mode, so I will be more specific in the future :-)</p>

<p>P.P.S. Hey, why do people list DS for son and DH for daughter? What does the seemingly extra D mean?</p>

<p>K</p>