I’ve been thinking about how to talk to my daughter about evaluating the safety of venues and how to decide what events are safe to attend, and frankly, I’ve been trying to figure this out for myself, too.
In LA right now there is a very vibrant “underground” theater scene with pop-up events held at “undisclosed” locations (with emails sent a few hours the before the performance disclosing the location).
I attended one of these events in an abandoned warehouse a couple of months ago that was a combination art installation/ theater piece. I had the thought at the time that there would be real problems if there were a fire becausd there were mountains of books everywhere used in the art installation component and it was clear that the theater portion didnt meet the fire codes; chairs crammed together, people sitting on the floor in the single aisle, etc. But I stayed and it was a spectacular event. I have no idea if it was permitted or not.
It didn’t seem obviously dangerous in that there were not frayed wires hanging around, etc., but still it was clearly not up to code.
How do you go about deciding whether these kinds of events are safe? How do you advise your kids on how to evaluate the safery of “underground” venues?
Here’s a link to the event I attended. Is it irrational to think that if an event is positively reviewed in a well-respected publication, it must be safe? Would you stay even if you could see that egress standards aren’t met. (It is easy to tell; conventional theaters dont have so much space between rows because they are trying to provide a lot of room; it is required by the fire codes).
I can’t imagine going down to the building department for every event to see what’s allowed in the space. My understanding is that this particular space probably wasn’t even permitted for assembly uses.
Generally speaking at the minimum an assembly space should have the following:
2 unblocked exits at spaced far apart
3’ access aisles on the exit route
lit up exit signs at the exit doors
emergency lights with battery packs if the electricity fails (these are often built into the exit signs)
a posted sign from the Fire Department that says was the maximum occupancy of a space is allowed to be.
I think most or many of us adults would leave if we saw the condition of the Oakland place. But what about less egregious issues? How do you decide when to stay or go?
When you think of some tragic fires, they were in places that were up to code but were compromised somehow. The chicken processing plant that had the emergency exits chained shut. The hotel in Las Vegas that had a fire burn through the main floor, not causing any deaths, but a worker had propped open a door to a fire stair and the smoke went up (as smoke likes to do) and came out on one floor where the door had also been propped open. Many people died. I went to an event that involved a candle lighting ceremony where the exit doors were chained shut. We survived and I wrote a letter to school but got no response!
I think I have some awareness of it because my Dad was a volunteer firefighter. This falls under those practical life skills that should be covered more in school and at home. Some people have no imagination for disaster and need a little reminding. Children can be fascinated by candle flames too.
Fire doors need signs on them reminding people to never prop them open. Emergency exits are supposed to have lighted signs so you can find them more easily. Stores and theaters should not block any part of any aisle with a display or pile of stacked chairs or whatever.
I don’t know if I’d leave a sketchy venue, but I would stand with my back to an easily operable door!
ETA - my advice for today would be that instead of writing a letter that only an administrator at an organization will see - do that and also tweet or otherwise expose the safety violation to the public at large. I tried to do that with a recent NYT article about a young many paying $450/month rent to live in a little space above a stage in a theater. No way that was in the least bit fire safe!!
I am someone who is always aware when I enter a space where the exits are. I don’t make a big deal of it but I am always aware of my surroundings and look around to check out the situation. Why? Because I was a hotel guest when I was young at the Copley Plaza Hotel, a hotel fire in which there were fatalities, one of several or several false alarms that night in Boston. I would leave if I thought a place was sketchy.
I would like to think that my daughters would be aware as well. My older daughter is an artist and has studio space in a large warehouse as part of a residency through NYC. She has had studio space in a converted school in Philly but whenever I have been in those spaces and in her friend’s art studios, you see clearly marked Exits, you see information from the NYC or Philadelphia Fire Department about inspections and posted rules about flammables and so on. My younger d is in theatre and I have seen her perform in spaces that are parts of converted warehouses and here too Exit signs are clear, there are postings from NYC Fire Department and so on. She regularly has her events for her own company in a converted school on the Lower East Side, a building that has artist spaces, dance studios, theatre spaces, offices and more.
You have to be in an environment with professional management that is in compliance with regulations. Clearly this situation in Oakland was not that and in reading the NYTIMES today, there are likely many spaces that function as illegal residences and live/work spaces there. I understand the issues of gentrification and affordable housing and in Oakland in particular as older d has a grad school friend who now has 3 children and whose wife is a lawyer. He had to give up his studio space as he could not afford rental, although he does own the home he lives in.
Beyond that there is the issue of common sense… it is tragic that so many young people’s lives were lost as they were there for a party but for people who chose to live there, you had to realized that it was not habitable.
I actually do check exits. I hope if there were a locked exit I’d say something or ask for my money back. Last year there was a blackout and I was in the locker room of our local Y. It was pitchblack because the locker room had no lights. Luckily I had finished taking my shower and was in the locker room area and was able to find my cell phone and use it as a flashlight. You better believe that I complained about the lack of exit and emergency lighting in that locker room. They were installed shortly afterwards. The place is all concrete block - so fire hazards are minimal, but there are no windows in much of the building. It was pitch black.
I don’t go to art or music venues but on the rare occasions when I stay in hotels, I scope out the exits. When I was in high school, my father and I were in a hotel in which a fire broke out, and it was terrifying. We attempted crawling down the hallway to an exit but turned back to our room because of the smoke. My dad ended up breaking the room’s window and we jumped out the 10 feet or so to the ground. Fortunately, there was snow, and neither of us was hurt, although we inhaled a lot of smoke and smelled like smoke for a few days.
I should be better about checking. I will now. And the only positive out of this Oakland story is to give us an example with which we can discuss the topic with our young adult children who don’t always want to listen.
One thing I have always been nervous about is crowds and the stampede type thing. I have removed myself from those type of situations in the past. Years ago when the kids were little, we were inside the Sistine Chapel and it was SOOOO packed it made me completely nervous, especially with little ones. People were shoulder to shoulder. After waiting all that time to get in, I made a quick exit. At least at that time, the Italians don’t have the occupancy load restrictions we do in the USA.
It makes sense to consider our homes and where we put visiting guests for the holidays too. If you’re in a basement please insist on a smoke and heat detector, and probably a carbon monoxide detector too. Ask about your kids’ apartments and make sure they have a fire extinguisher in the kitchen.
If your kids rent off campus apartments they should make sure they have the required fire code stuff - smoke and CO2 detectors and emergency exits. Landlords in college towns sometimes try to rent out spaces they shouldn’t. I remember in Boston not that long ago a tragic fire in an attic apartment that was not up to code and was housing several college students.
My husband has always instilled in our family to check for exits when in a crowded location and get out of any place you don’t feel is safe. I would definitely leave any place I felt was unsafe and I hope my daughter would also.
I remember reading this thread and thinking then commenting on the lack of egress in the sleeping pods. The design surprised me, This is on a college campus. I doubt it would fly where I live. I’m pretty sure all sleeping quarters need windows to allow for 2 means of egress in an emergency. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19886564#Comment_19886564
@doschicos – Many new dorms have windows that open only a little bit, and the windows are clearly not for egress. I think that’s as much a safety issue (accidental falls, suicides) as anything…but the floors have two distinct stairwells at either end and sprinklers everywhere.
I’ve twice called our fire department’s fire marshall when I saw emergency exits chained/blocked shut - one was at a grocery store, and the other was at a restaurant/bar. Both times I first spoke to the manager and came back to find the situation unchanged. The fire marshall had more success.
Good friends were caught in the Home Depot fire in So. Cal 30 years ago, and made it out only because the husband picked up his very pregnant wife and beat feet out of there.
What is especially scary is that you don’t really have any way to check that closed emergency exit doors really open.
“I’ve twice called our fire department’s fire marshall when I saw emergency exits chained/blocked shut - one was at a grocery store, and the other was at a restaurant/bar. Both times I first spoke to the manager and came back to find the situation unchanged. The fire marshall had more success.”
Earlier posts have mentioned CO detectors. We have them on all floors of our home. About 3 years ago during the spring, about 10PM, my wife and I were in the living room reading/watching TV. We heard a “thump” but couldn’t place it. It sounded similar to when we’ve had a bird hit a window during the day. About 15 mins later, our CO detector goes off in the basement. To ensure it wasn’t a false alarm, I quickly go down and check it out. This monitor is in our laundry room which also has the hot water heater and furnace. It wasn’t a false alarm and the readout was very clear – danger, you need to evacuate.
I alerted everyone and we and our pet dog got out of the house. I called 911. In our municipality, they send our an emergency response car with one individual for CO calls – just to make sure not to call out the fire dept in case of minor issues or misreads. The person pulled out his monitor and entered our front door with me behind him (the family was sitting in the driveway in our minivan). His handheld monitor went off the chart and he didn’t take another step forward. He backed away and called in for the fire trucks. They came and entered the house in full respirators, opened up the windows and laid out enormous fans that started drawing out the CO from the house.
The emergency first responder said he’d never seen such a high reading and that he and his wife had just moved into a new home and he hadn’t installed CO monitors. He said after his shift, he was going to Walmart to get them before going home!
The firemen came out and told us that some scaling build up had fallen from our chimney and clogged up the vent from our hot water heater. That was the earlier “thump”. The hot water heater was going full bore due to laundry, dishwasher and some showers that evening. The CO couldn’t vent and flooded the home.
Of course we turned off the hot water heater. After the house was cleared, I went inside and plugged my CO monitor back into the wall. It was surreal but I was holding in my hand a device that literally just saved the lives of me and my family! We would have been in the next day’s TV news. Indeed we were contacted by a local station due to our close call and they were going to air a piece on our experience but other large stories emerged in our area and it got nudged aside.
Please please, see that you and your loved ones’ homes have working CO detectors. I mean today – go out and get one if you don’t have it.
I don’t think most of know the maximum number of people we could allow on our own outdoor deck much less know the safety requirements for a make shift entertainment facility.
When I was a little girl I took dance classes in the basement of a woman’s house for several years. That ended when she, her husband and 2 daughters all died in their beds of carbon monoxide poisoning. My family has been vigilant about detectors ever since.
I have shared the details of the Oakland fire with my kids. They’ve seen the pictures of the space, and we discussed the fire hazards. My daughter is the type of kid who would think an underground music venue is really cool - hoping that this tragedy will make her think when she is faced with going into a similar place. Heartbreaking loss for those people and their families.
