<p>SodiumFree, thanks for circling back with your comments. I’m glad that this discussion helped crystallize your thoughts.</p>
<p>The fact that you and your brother and sister get along so well is testament to your parents. Again, I’m sorry for the loss of someone who must have been a wonderful person and a good mom.</p>
<p>“You ARE legally entitled to the money but only you can decide if it’s worth taking.”</p>
<p>Yes, this.</p>
<p>I am the personal representative for a sibling’s estate. He died 6 years ago, and the estate is still open; my co-personal representative and I have put in over 1,000 hours each in the resolution of it. VERY complex, obviously (lots of rental real estate, dealing with several states and multiple countries, etc). A couple of additional thoughts that may not apply to the OP, but…</p>
<ul>
<li><p>The state our estate is located in is not very specific about executor fees (sounds like NJ is, though). We worked with our attorney to try to determine a fair rate for our time, and ended up setting it very low (less than 1/4 of what I make at an hourly rate in my consulting practice). But we figured that would reduce the conflict with heirs. And while there have been some complaints over the years, none have been about our executor fees.</p></li>
<li><p>Although it came at some personal cost for us, we did a LOT of tasks that could have been done by an attorney. If the attorney had done them, it would have cost something like 6-8 times the cost of of hour fee. The cost savings was signficant. I am not knocking my estate attorneys at all, I absolutely adore them. They have saved us a ton of money and hassle by providing excellent advice along the way. They certainly earned a healthy fee, but we did save a lot by doing a lot ourselves, too. I don’t feel bad at all about taking the fee (and my children are among the heirs). I know I saved the estate a lot of money by doing the work instead of paying a higher priced attorney.</p></li>
<li><p>Yes, the fees are taxable as personal income at the state and federal level.</p></li>
<li><p>Honestly, maybe your best tactic is to ask your brother and sister what they think. Tell them if you didn’t even know there was a fee involved when you took the job. Give them an accounting of the hours you think you spent. Tell them you feel uncomfortable with the size of the fee, and ask them to help you figure out something you all think is fair. (Assuming NJ law allows this). If they insist that you take it all, insist that the family all take a fun vacation together with a big portion of it. Or hang onto it and give 529 starter gifts to their grandkids when they are born. :)</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Going straight to the unemotional math, $40k is about 6% of $700k, just for round numbers.
That would mean $165k to 3 siblings and $185k to the OP. Not a huge huge difference, but enough to cause some raised eyebrows.</p>
<p>Since I will be executor in our family, I did some research on west coast states, here it sounds like the fee is a maximum in one state and another reports ‘reasonable’ For example in CA the statutory fee at $700k is $17k.</p>
<p>Is there the ability to negotiate the attorney fee or does he simply take the flat amount? The Googling I did showed that in many cases, it is expected that the executor would not simply charge the maximum fee.</p>
<p>How would you feel if your brother or sister were the trustee? What would you feel is fair for them to take were they in your position? Rather like having one kid cut the candy bar in half and the other choose, take what you would think was fair for your sibling to be paid in your position.</p>
<p>If the attorney takes $20k and you take $10k and everyone sees that on the settlement statement, that should look reasonable.</p>
<p>OP, of course every family is different; this is just my $.02 for whatever it’s worth.</p>
<p>Twenty years ago, I watched my SIL’s family blow up over estate issues, and I became determined that when our time came, I would do everything in my power to prevent that from happening to us. Now that my own parents are failing, one of my main goals in this entire situation is that, when the dust settles, all the siblings will still be friends. For that reason, I take it upon myself to see that we communicate frequently and openly about all important developments, including financial developments. There are no solo decisions. </p>
<p>So, if I were faced with this fee situation, I wouldn’t even think about trying to decide what to do. I’d call a meeting with my brothers and we’d come to some kind of concensus about it. I could make an argument that I had done a certain amount of work. They could make an argument that families do things for each other without expecting professional compensation. My guess is that they’d want me to keep at least some of it, but if not, then I would feel that I’d been heard and I’d be content with the decision. </p>
<p>Here’s my long view: when my parents are gone, my brothers will be the only people left who’ve known me all my life. I don’t want to lose them over a few thousand dollars.</p>
<p>I guess I’m a minority view. I’m an attorney and was co-administrator of a messy, messy estate after my Dad died intestate (no will). I felt that our guiding principal was that we would do what the law says. There were so many views and competing visions of what was right, that I pretty much wouldn’t go there. I felt everyone (including the admins) would get what the law said they should, and then what they did with it was up to them. </p>
<p>My situation is different from a closeknit family, because we had many “families” involved, but I was so thankful to have the law as guidance. I guess that’s my general view is there is nothing wrong with getting whatever the law says you should get. The law is just so much clearer than emotions and notions of what is “deserved.” Getting into all that is just entirely too complicated. I wouldn’t feel guilty about getting the fee, and I fully expect my sibling to take her share when she is exec on the next one.</p>
<p>doughmom, your point about resorting to the letter of the law in a messy situation is well taken. I can certainly understand why you would do so.</p>
<p>But regarding the fees, clearly this “law” was set up as an extremely self-serving one for lawyers. I have a friend whose widowed mother died, leaving her entire estate to him, her only surviving descendant. He was single with no heirs. She owned nothing but her house and investments. The picture couldn’t have been simpler. Unfortunately, his mother was foolish enough to name an attorney as her executor, instead of her only heir. (Undoubtedly advised by the attorney who set up her will…who may also have been the executor.) The attorney named as executor managed to extract something like $40K from the estate. Even if a lawyer in a small town in Kentucky had the enormous gall to charge $400 per hour in the early 90s, there is no way this guy spent 100 hours on this estate. </p>
<p>IMHO, theft, pure and simple.</p>
<p>I will add my own story, hoping that is ok. When my mother died, at the last minute she changed her will to appoint my brother as executor (when for 25 years the will had stated that I was to be executor). I am the lawyer by training, but he was able to go to her bedside, and have her will changed in the hospital (many miles from where he and I live). I could not leave at the time because of my own family responsibilities, and he has no family. Her previous will could not be “found”. It did of course turn up later, but I think you get the drift.</p>
<p>Now while I was hurt that he did this, he did not really change the substantive other terms of the previous will. However, a gift of an annuity to my child, the only grandchild, which was legally outside of the estate was counted by him as a part of my distribution of the estate, which had an effect of reducing my distribution, and made it less than his and my sister, which should not have happened. In the interest of not causing a fight, I said nothing. He also took his executor fee. I did not have a problem with that, he actually did some work, and it was not that much money. I was not happy about the other decision, but I did not have the will to make a big fight. Fast forward a couple of years, and he is angry at me, and won’t talk to me for events of 20 or more years ago (all of which I considered imaginary but I previously apologized for to make peace and was told that I was forgiven prior to the recent bit of anger.)</p>
<p>Point: some people will always find ways to be angry. You can appease them and they still will blame you for nothing. I hope all of you have nicer siblings than my brother.</p>
<p>If you are willing to forgo the fee, talk to your siblings about it first, and see if it will be a problem. I hope they are normal and not nuts like someone I know.</p>
<p>^^ That’s the problem, estates tend to bring out the “nuts” in people. And that’s why the question of a family member taking the executor’s fee cannot be evaluated based on the normal “professional services” lens. The services provided by the executor are the least of the considerations in play.</p>
<p>
At the risk of offending, this is, IMHO, exactly the wrong approach, and an example of why people should be paid - overtly, above board, based on objective, standardized rates - for performing this type of task.</p>
<p>People always “find out.” You feel entitled to the little “extra” in the form of the FF miles that your sister won’t get to share because you’ve done this work and she didn’t, but instead of openly accepting the compensation you were entitled to for the work you did, you pretended to take nothing while taking a benefit and hiding it from her. I understand that the benefit you’re receiving is less than what you’re entitled to - but the secrecy shrouding it is a recipe for trouble. In my experience that’s what often happens when people work for free, and the reason I’m against it. I understand where you’re coming from - I just think it’s asking for even more trouble than you are trying to avoid.</p>
<p>My preferred course of action would be to accept a reasonable fee for services rendered, and suggest to your Mom that she let you and your sister use some of her miles - and let sis in on the deal. That way everything is out in the open, with no secrets to fester and cause trouble down the road. My prediction? She’ll figure it out eventually.</p>
<p>That’s the problem, estates tend to bring out the “nuts” in people</p>
<p>Oh I so agree.
I don’t have anything helpful to add, except that my mom died two years ago, and my brother in law is still settling the estate. ( He is in finance & while my mom originally made me the executrix until my sister pitched a fit, I am ok with that)</p>
<p>However, she also made my brother the beneficiary of her IRA with verbal directions that it was to be split between her three children.</p>
<p>My brother has not split it, & my brother in law is refusing to disperse a 1/3rd of the estate to my brother until he does so. Meanwhile my brother has been CC’ing me on emails stating his desire to retain all of the IRA as well as his share of the estate- somehow he thinks I would be on his * side*?</p>
<p>I agree with being as transparent as possible upfront.</p>
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</p>
<p>This might make sense except for the fact that my sister and her husband have an inherited fortune. They are multimillionaires who can fly wherever they wish whenever they wish. She does not need frequent flyer miles. My mother offered them to me <em>partly</em> because she was grateful for all of the help H and I had given her, before and after my father’s death. They were a gift, not a “payment.” (And of course we managed to find flights that used the fewest possible, even though they were far less convenient for us…) It would be perfectly fine with me if my mother chose to give some miles to my sister or anyone else: they are hers to give.</p>
<p>Sister and BIL–who is an attorney, BTW–talked a good game about helping with stuff but never carried through on anything, including the specific things they said they would do. But instead of being pleased that H and I were stepping up to take care of stuff, her response is always “I/BIL could have done that.” To which I strictly refrain from replying, “Yes, but you said you would do X, Y, and Z and you didn’t.” I can assure you that we have never gotten a thank you from her, and it is more as if I am expected to apologize for dropping everything and helping my mother provide hospice care, probate the estate, and so forth. I’m the one who did it, despite the fact that I had a job and a small business and she has neither.</p>
<p>My sister and, failing her, my BIL are named as executors in my mother’s current will, which my mother wants to change. (The wills were written a number of years ago, and I am the younger sib.) My mother prefers to have H and I help her with her affairs, partly because we do not attempt to bully her into following our preferred course of action, but instead help her get the facts and let her make up her own mind. I could cite several examples of my sister bullying my mother into taking certain courses of action that were not in my mother’s financial interest because it suited my sister’s personal convenience. My sister is one of those people who has a well-developed ability to convince herself that whatever SHE wants must be the right thing. My mother knows that I will scrupulously honor her wishes, and be scrupulously fair. I have absolutely no doubt, on the other hand, that my sister would find reasons in her mind to disperse certain assets which have significant financial and sentimental value, such as a substantial collection of 17th and 18th century antique furniture, to her children before dividing the estate between us. Her view would predictably be that since I “only” have a son, I don’t need anything like that. (My sister doesn’t think much of sons. When I told her my baby was going to be a boy, years ago, her reaction was to make a face. Nice.)</p>
<p>A classic: I have been filling my mother’s Netflix queue for the last year and a half, and she has really liked the assortment of movies I’ve picked out for her. Not every one, but most of them. Sister arrives, and makes a big deal on the phone with me of how she has removed this or that from the list because she doesn’t think it suitable for my mother! She can’t do anything that actually NEEDS to be done, but she CAN edit the Netflix queue and let me know about how her selections are “better.” Ye gods.</p>
<p>Believe me, she is a very difficult person, and she is for some unknown reason simply riddled with unwarranted sibling rivalry. (BTW, to forestall the predictable assumptions, my parents were very generous with their time and money with them, and H and I are NOT the deadbeat child who gets support that some others have described in other threads here.)</p>
<p>Gee Consolation, your sister sounds like a perfect fit for “Housewives of” … uh, where does she live again?</p>
<p>Hah! She’s probably too old now, but otherwise I think you may have a point. :D</p>
<p>Consolation, I couldn’t quite tell from your post if your mom has plans to actually make the change that you say she wants to. I believe she can change executors at any time without the current executor’s permission, and if she’s more comfortable with you, then she should do that without delay. The fact that BIL is an attorney doesn’t give him any special claim to executorship. </p>
<p>Of course, if Mom changes the will and Sis finds out while Mom lives, she might make things really unpleasant for both you and Mom. If she finds out after Mom is gone, then it’s probably the end of your relationship. There are no good answers when people are that difficult.</p>
<p>LasMa, I’m not certain, but I don’t think my sister has ever actually seen either of my parents’ wills, so she is probably unaware of who is named as executor in the event that both parents have died. (Each parent was the sole heir and executor for each other.) My mother wouldn’t be changing who gets what, other than omitting the step of leaving everything to my father–everything is split between us–just changing the executor. Of course, I’m sure my sister thinks that BIL should be named. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Unless your BIL is an estate attorney, the fact that he’s a lawyer does not confer any special expertise to him in being an executor. In fact, I think it argues he should not be the executor, since you and your sister are equal in the sense of being tied to each other by family memories and bonds to your mother. But your BIL has the conflict of interest, without the same bond to your mother. He’s actually, in my opinion, the worst choice to be executor.</p>
<p>“He’s actually, in my opinion, the worst choice to be executor.”</p>
<p>So when the SIL gets mad at Consolation and takes her complaint to her husband (the Executor) you don’t think he’s enough of a professional to tell her “Go sit in the corner My Dear. I’m in charge here, and I’m siding with Consolation.”</p>
<p>Nah, me neither.</p>
<p>I am executor of my parents estate. I already told all my siblings they are screwed.</p>
<p>Love it, Tom!</p>