Failing at Stanford

Parents Forum
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<p>I had a brilliant young friend (still at Stanford,) very self motivated- and he struggled with CS, changed focus, then went back to CS when he got his bearings. You say in #13 she’s not a CS major- no need to take such hard classes.</p>

<p>You have to learn what sort of probation this is- a performance issue that threatens her future there or a simple tick for being under the number of credits required? (Ie, something she can catch up with.) How did she do in other classes (barely made it through or okay?)</p>

<p>I had to force D2 to take easier classes- took considerable nagging. In fact, once she did that, she discovered what lit her fire. Won’t graduate with stellar grades, but has learned so much and grown and now on track.</p>

<p>OR, if this is an ADHD issue, you have to get her evaluated to learn the best sort of help for her-- if this is it, you have a “life issue” on your hands. Not one that can be wished away. Good luck. Takes work.</p>

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I completed 3 degrees at Stanford and never had a class with 400+ students. It’s not common. According to [Undergraduate</a> Profile: Stanford University Facts](<a href=“http://facts.stanford.edu/academics/undergraduate-profile]Undergraduate”>Undergraduate Student Profile - Facts), only 5% of undergrad classes have 100+ students. </p>

<p>Regarding your daughter’s issues, when I was a student, Stanford offered special test provisions for students with ADHD. Has your daughter looked into this?</p>

<p>She might also consider looking into a different field of study. CS is the most popular major at Stanford and a very practical one for graduates. Nevertheless, the field does not fit well with a large portion of the student body, who would instead excel in other areas. </p>

<p>Also note that Stanford permits students to repeat classes in which they scored a lower grade. The original class grade gets changed to “Repeat Course” instead of a letter that impacts GPA. I believe it’s a max of one repeat per course.</p>

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<p>Given that coming in to AP credit is common among Stanford students, Stanford’s placement recommendations with respect to AP credit are probably suitable for most students coming in with AP credit, so repeating AP credit would likely be a waste of time and tuition. However, at any school, it would be a good idea for a student taking a more advanced course to review the college’s final exams for the course that may be skipped in order to check how well the student knows the material.</p>

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<p>OP- I know this is a challenging situation, especially if you are used to having an academic star living under your roof. But if your D’s core issues with ADHD are around time management and executive functioning, it’s not clear that another college is going to fix that issue- even with smaller classes or different scheduling.</p>

<p>I’ve hired employees on my team who had ADHD and it only became apparent after they started that they were used to a HUGE amount of support from mom and dad. And once that support goes away (we don’t allow mom’s to come to work to help manage their kids calendar) the kid just falls to pieces.</p>

<p>So in terms of your D’s life- figuring out how she can translate her academic strengths into success is going to be critical for her life. So maybe academic probation is a small price to pay for getting her in front of the abundant academic support that a place like Stanford has- tutoring, TA’s, etc. And perhaps it’s the wake up call that now that HS is over, she needs to figure out how to play to her own strengths without relying on Mom and Dad.</p>

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<p>And also probably more hospitable and nurturing than most schools to which someone can realistically transfer with a 2.1 GPA (community colleges, moderately and less selective state universities).</p>

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<p>rainbowgirl, it seems like you are angry.</p>

<p>are you angry at Stanford, or angry at your daughter? I might be reading this incorrectly but are you angry that you are full pay at Stanford, and yet your daughter is getting a poor return on the investment because her grades are poor?</p>

<p>I certainly understand disappointment but Stanford is HARD. Stanford would not have accepted your daughter if they did not think she was capable, but my guess is that at Stanford she is more of a Stanford-average student rather than the standout student that she was in her high school. And, she is receiving average grades (I am assuming that her other grades were B range?) other than the one grade that certainly pulled down her average?</p>

<p>Help your daughter strategize for more success. As I said above, have her be strategic in choosing her classes to play to her strengths. Talk to her about going to her professors or other supports (tutors, writing centers, office hours, TA sessions) regularly, whether or not she needs help in a course, and especially if she is struggling in a course. She should also check in to the study skills office–they might be able to help her develop strategies for studying more effectively. College is so different than most high schools–sheer memorization of volumes of material just won’t do it any more. There’s no more extra credit, no more fluff assignments meant to help bring up grades.</p>

<p>Something I learned when one of my sons was struggling academically in college was that he didn’t need my angst putting even more stress on him. He was feeling plenty of stress already–after all, he always had high expectations of himself, and he was more than aware of not measuring up to standards–and adding more was not productive. Your daughter has enough to worry about with learning to meet her professors’ expectations–worrying about being such a disappointment/poor return on investment to you will only increase her anxiety.</p>

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<p>4kidsdad has a point: many talented students choose not to take the AP credit and take the intro classes in some of those subjects anyway, to keep stress down in freshman year. There may be financial reasons for taking the AP credits, for some. Also, in some subjects, particularly the major it is good to take the intro class at the college because it is foundational for classes at that particular school.</p>

<p>You don’t say what accommodations your daughter has, or if she is medicated, if she has a therapist, psychiatrist, counselor, advisor or coach involved. For this kind of transition, any or all of these would help a lot. Is she registered with the disabilities office?</p>

<p>I have one with ADHD who was at a small but demanding liberal arts college, and we submitted documentation of her disability (she has another one) and a list of requested accommodations. For the first year she availed herself of quite a bit of time management help through advising, and she also occasionally got papers in late with no penalty. Professors all knew she was trying hard. Maybe a smaller school would help.</p>

<p>Why was she taking computer science? Does she have an academic advisor who knows her strengths and weaknesses?</p>

<p>One other thing. There are many parents on here who have kids with ADHD who are at elite colleges and do well. I believe almost all of them have some sort of support. YOu can even hire a coach who will work via phone or Skype.</p>

<p>My daughter has another health problem that makes medicating ADHD impossible, for the most part. We believe in a strengths based approach. She has trouble reading due to focus issues. She has many skills outside of academics. She came home, got a job, does a performing art, and studies healing arts. I have three kids and two went to Ivies: guess how is the happiest in life right now?</p>

<p>I am not suggesting that your daughter drop out but I am telling you what we like to say around here: “There are no disasters in life.” What happened with her GPA at Stanford provides information about how to proceed, what to do differently, and now it is time to take action on that. </p>

<p>Stanford is a great name and transcript won’t matter to many employers. She can pull GPA up with smart course choices, accommodations, and other help with her ADHD. Or if Stanford is not a good fit, she can take classes without matriculating somewhere, get good grades, and improve her chances at a transfer. Or she can leave and do something else for awhile.</p>

<p>Maybe get her someone to talk to so she can make good choices. But know that this is not a make or break moment in her life and there are many ways to recoup. It will work out.</p>

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<p>Hmmm, [Stanford</a> University Explore Courses](<a href=“Stanford University Explore Courses”>Stanford University Explore Courses) indicates that CS 106A for autumn 2013 has a lecture and 68 discussion sections (55 and 54 discussion sections for winter and spring quarters). It does not say the capacity and actual enrollment in the lecture or each discussion section, but the fact that there are 68 discussion sections means that this course is quite large (if there are only 5 students in each discussion, that still makes 340 students).</p>

<p>So it is entirely possible that the OP’s daughter found a 400 student class, even if such things are rare at Stanford.</p>

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<p>This is pretty straightforward:
*A student who fails to earn at least 36 units of work in his or her most recent three quarters of enrollment at the University (by the end of the third final exam period), or who fails to earn by the end of the final examination period at least 9 quarter units of work in his or her most recent quarter of enrollment at the University, or who has a cumulative grade point average of less than 2.0, shall be placed on probation (warning status).</p>

<p>A student shall be removed from probation after three consecutive subsequent quarters of enrollment at the University if, in each quarter, he or she earns a minimum of 12 units of new course work by the end of the final examination period and achieves and maintains a cumulative grade point average of at least 2.0. A student may also be removed from probation at the discretion of the C-USP Subcommittee on Academic Standing or its designees as a result of a review of individual records.
*</p>

<p>Can she take 12 units each quarter, this year, and get a cumulative 2.0? You have to work with this.</p>

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<p>Blossom, you make a good point.</p>

<p>My husband has made the same observation. So many students go all the way through school with a myriad of supports–extra time, quiet space, mom managing the schedule and often doing more than that–</p>

<p>and then the student grows up and goes to work–and flops spectacularly.</p>

<p>An employer expects an employee to handle the workload and all aspects of it, and without giving double time or an organizational assistant. Assignments/reports/filings are due when they are due, and deadlines are deadlines. No mom in the office to keep track of multiple responsibilities or assignments, to help prioritize, to check required formats, etc. No mom to go to bat for you when curveballs come up, and they always do…</p>

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I don’t doubt that there are 400 students in CS 106a. The graph at The graph at [Stanford</a> Daily | NEWcs106a04](<a href=“http://www.stanforddaily.com/2012/10/04/cs106a-enrollment-reaches-record-high/newcs106a04/]Stanford”>http://www.stanforddaily.com/2012/10/04/cs106a-enrollment-reaches-record-high/newcs106a04/) shows the CS106a enrollment by year and confirms this. However, CS is the most popular major, and CS 106a is the most popular CS course, so it may very well be the largest class size in the entire university. It’s not a good representation of the typical class size. Back when I took CS 106x (I took x instead of a), it was under 100 students. The only classes I ever had with 100+ students were pre-med foundation intro chem/bio classes.</p>

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<p>boysx3 - I find your comments to be insensitive and unhelpful. </p>

<p>My D is going to stay in college for a long time before she will go to work.
After BS there is MS and PHD. No one is in a hurry to have a job.</p>

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<p>I AM the mom in the office, and although I bend over backwards to accommodate/help/assist, there is a limit to how much helicoptering management can do for an employee.</p>

<p>Set up an alert email with a spreadsheet (both graphics and words, depending on how the employee learns best) so every day he or she knows what the deadlines are? Yes, we can do that. Develop a buddy system so that everyone on a group project has someone to check in with regularly to make sure there are no unanticipated delays or screw ups? Yes, we can do that. Regular update meetings so that we’ve got a punch list of outstanding and unresolved issues? Yes, we can do that.</p>

<p>I’ve done all this and more for my ADHD professionals. But I can’t wake someone up to get to work on time. I can’t tell someone that they need to stay late on Wed and Thursday evenings, since they like to leave early on Friday and are groggy and useless on Monday, and the only way for them to get their work done is to build that overtime into their calendar. I HAVE told people that their incessant perfectionism on trivial things is getting in the way of them being successful on the big things (i.e. editing an internal memo six times instead of working on their big project).</p>

<p>But I wish some of them had availed themselves of the services at college to learn all these things before they showed up in my office, expecting their colleagues and team mates to keep them on time, organized, focused on the big priorities, and preventing them from going over the cliff.</p>

<p>And OP- I am very sensitive to what you and your D must be feeling right now. But try to chill. It is not helpful to your D who is struggling to get a foothold at college to hear that she needs a Master’s and a PhD as well. You keep making the hurdles higher and higher for her. Right now she needs to develop a plan for being a successful sophomore, not worrying about her doctoral work.</p>

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<p>OP, I am in my mid-60s now, so it was quite a few years ago that I had a history like kelsmom: bad grades first year and dropped half of my courses as incomplete.</p>

<p>What I remember the most was coming home after my freshman year with my tail between my legs. I had been a high-achieving student previously, and my parents were accustomed to not having to “worry” about how I was doing. My father said that he would pay for another year’s tuition, but that he expected that I would find my way to a more successful year. Even now, all these years later, it brings tears to my eyes, because I knew how hard he worked for that money and how deep and unconditional his love for me had to be for him to write another check. He never gave me an ounce of attitude about it, it was never spoken of again, and the future was such a dramatic improvement.</p>

<p>I understand that you’re angry. I would not be happy if my children came home with a 2.1, even from Stanford. But, it’s time for both of you to dig deep, you as much as your daughter.</p>

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<p>Blossom - My D is the one that wants to get MA and PHD. She is very motivated and she is studying because she love to study and she also loves Stanford and everything about it.</p>

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<p>CS106A classes are quite big. Autumn usually has 500-700 students. The chem, math and physics classes are over 250 or so for the beginning ones.</p>

<p>Many of the students in Premed and engineering keep moving in tandem until they give up on the major. Many of the classes my kid took were quite large this year.</p>

<p>The exceptions seem to be seminars and PWR.</p>

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<p>So your D is on board with leaving a college she loves?</p>

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<p>If your daughter LOVES Stanford and everything about it, I think you have your answer. She should return to Stanford and work with the advising folks there to choose an appropriate and doable course of study. In addition, she should get information about tutorial services and the like…and USE THEM when she needs them. There is nothing wrong with seeking help!</p>

<p>Lastly, if your daughter DID have any accommodations in high school, you might want to get those records and contact the disabilities office at Stanford.</p>

<p>The university would NOT have accepted your daughter unless they thought she could succeed.</p>

<p>It sounds like she needs some direction in terms of course selection, and choice of major.</p>

<p>It’s nice that she is contemplating a masters and PhD but at this point, she needs to concentrate her efforts on completing her bachelors degree. Those graduate decisions can be made later based on what she ultimately chooses in undergrad and how well she does.</p>

<p>I will say…I agree that the OP sounds angry…is it because of the high cost they are paying to Stanford? Is it anger at the daughter for not getting better grades? Is it anger because of the courses at Stanford? Is it anger because the daughter did better in high school?</p>

<p>At this point, I would put that anger aside, because…the daughter loves everything about Stanford. Give her this term to show she can improve her performance…given the right course selection. She now knows how quickly a quarter goes by…and how important it is to keep up with ALL course work.</p>

<p>She isn’t the first student who had a less than perfect freshman year!</p>

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<p>I did a cursory search of the OP’s posts and it looks like the original intent of the daughter was to major in math. And it looks like if she got into yale, u-chicago, and stanford, that she must have been quite a strong student. I suggest that she starts taking applied math classes and stops dabbling in engineering and CS. And for now, limit the number of technical classes she takes. Some people can be slower to understand if they are looking at things in a deep way–for these people it is better to take less of a classload, if possible. I feel like two technical classes a term is more than enough of a challenge, if it is allowed.</p>

<p>Engineering and CS are very different than math and the sciences, and some people good at math/science are not a good fit for engineering/CS. It’s just a different animal. Things are more often derived in science/math class; in engineering/CS, it’s more like you are given a system to try to get a handle on and then try to do logical manipulations of it. With or without ADHD, it’s hard to pay attention in classes you don’t really enjoy.</p>

<p>If she later on wants to get into engineering/CS or challenge herself with CS classes, it will still be possible with a math background. In fact, you can be a software engineer with a BS in math, if you acquire the relevant experience.</p>

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<p>The way I see it, we either have faith in our kids or we don’t. We either allow for stumbles or we slay their confidence. This is a transition period between dependence and independence- lots to experience and learn. Our role shifts from high expectations to supporting the learning process- academic, social and personal. Backing them up. </p>

<p>Some people can be slower to understand if they are looking at things in a deep way–for these people it is better to take less of a classload, if possible. </p>

<p>Agree. Is this kid’s engine revving too high? Coming in with 40 AP credits and what? Let her find her pace. Help her with that. AND, if the problem is the ADHD, don’t ignore it. Sheesh. It’s not about grad school goals. That doesn’t explain anything away.</p>

<p>The Stanford policy gives her room for a second chance, maybe more.</p>