If Mommy & Daddy stole a car for them, but they didn’t know, should they be allowed to keep it? Their ability to drive it is moot… the ill-gotten gains of the crime should be revoked.
Not always. Some people who are posting here already have children attending elite colleges.
@jym626 For the kids who are innocent beneficiaries, I personally think they should be allowed to quietly transfer to a school where they would have qualified to begin with. Given the difficulty such kids might have because of the publicity, the administrations should help them make the transition. They should not be allowed to reap the bounty of their parent’s illegal activities, but I don’t believe they should be left with no chance and no future.
Some of these kids clearly had no desire for school in the first place, but for the one’s who sincerely wish to continue their education, they should have a chance.
Edited to add: This would be in line with what happens in other cases where there are innocent beneficiaries of illegal activities. For example, Madoff’s wife was allowed to keep some money so she would not be left completely destitute. Justice and Mercy.
@milee30 “This happens to be the description of the amount of time and work put in by an elite sports recruit, but could just as easily be the description of the work schedule of a low income kid who has to work to help support his/her family. While the effort and determination of the sports recruit definitely deserves respect, it is absolutely insane that it is more highly valued than the low income kid working at a manual labor job for minimum wage and even less glamour.”
THIS, in spades!
Only a small % of the population can afford test prep, counseling, select/travel sports, music lessons, etc. that seem to be the focus of way too many folks here on CC.
Check box mania drives me crazy.
This scandal exposes something far deeper than a few cheaters and criminals. Here’re just a few questions to ponder
- Many, if not all, of these students who are involved are unqualified, but they expect they will graduate at these colleges. And they are right. What does it tell you about the rigor of these colleges?
- Some, if not all, of these students don’t really care about college education, why do they, or their parents, want them to go to an elite college? Is a degree from an elite college just a pretty piece of clothing and what’s underneath doesn’t really matter? Is that why even the rich and famous are after these colleges, because they always like pretty pieces of clothing?
- Americans generally thought, many still do, that this is a country where dreams can come true, if you’re smart and work hard. That belief is based on a more-or-less meritocratic and incorruptible system. Education, particularly college education, is supposed to be a big part of that dream come true. Is the entry to that meritocratic system corrupt, or at least highly corruptible?
- Finally and most importantly, what has made this system corrupt or highly corruptible? And what need to be done about it?
Agree.
And at the same time, I believe that any student who was admitted under false pretenses should be expelled or denied, as the case may be. That is the only way to get through to some of these entitled parents.
Every recruited Ivy athlete (along with NESCAC and most others) gets a “pre-read” by admissions before they can be recruited by the coach. That’s a thumbs up or thumbs down to continue the process. Thumbs down happens a lot, and sometimes the student is told to get their test scores up to a certain number. I haven’t seen any reporting on this, so a piece of the puzzle is missing and I’m not sure how the students caught up in the scandal were pre-screened by admissions with such troubled applications.
The notion that the Ivies can field competitive teams exclusively with walk-ons is ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding of the skill level even for Ivy athletes. To give an idea, each year, 1-3 players (out of roughly six seniors) from every Ivy league team are drafted by the MLB. Compared to a baseball powerhouse school like Vanderbilt, where most of the junior and senior classes are drafted, it’s smaller, but still means they have players who are competitive at the highest level.
Clearly admission to the elite universities can be compromised. However, that does not mean the meritocratic pathway is no longer available. Kids can and do rise to the top from every single reputable college in the country.
Singer’s evil genius was in the way he exploited and corrupted aspects of college admissions that can be, and usually are, legal: accommodations, athletic recruiting, the role of college consultants, etc. We can debate the fairness of those aspects (well, probably not on CC), but as others have said on this long thread, seeking accommodations or being accepted as a recruited athlete doesn’t constitute cheating unless you’re cheating when you do it.
It takes a special kind of sociopath to come up with the idea of getting the highest level of testing accommodation in order to control the test environment and deliver the contracted-for results. That level of disregard for the norms that should protect all of us is staggering.
Re why these applications would slip by admissions, they were perfectly packaged frauds. I read the complaint. Singer did this for 20 years and he knew what he was doing. This isn’t a new scam. Penn’s basketball coach, Jerome Allen, was paid $300K (in $10K increments over several years) by Medicare fraudster Morris Esforme. I find it hard to believe it was Allen’s only deal. His assistant coach Ira Bowman was aware of the deal and cut in on the action.
Singer and Esforme had a brief exchange, but Esforme cut a direct deal with Allen. Less expensive I’d say for an ivy admission. Singer really gouged for those, especially the big money clients. He sold admission to less prestigious schools like UCSD for less and priced clients based on wealth IMO. Makes business sense. This was all business.
Being involved with the private school world for some time now, the very wealthy in my professional life and my personal one - LA, Silicon Valley, the upper east side and DC - that’s my impression. That’s how they see it. A transaction.
You know, I was a poor kid, and I worked 20-35 hours a week at Mcdonald’s, and babysitting for $1/hr on weekends, while also playing 3 Varsity sports, and being salutatorian, and getting over 700 on both parts of the SAT when that was a rare thing…but take it from me, there is too much (condescending) admiration for “the low income kid working to help support their family”. I was working to buy clothes. My family last bought me clothes in 7th grade, on bag day at the church rummage sale. I dressed like Sonny Bono that entire year (I am female)…so I bought my own clothes. It would take me 36 hours of babysitting to buy one pair of Jordache jeans, so I bought Levi’s, and an Izod shirt would take 24 babysitting hours, so I would buy turtlenecks, but I was no martyr. I resented the hell out of it when my mom would divide up some treat I’d bought with my own money so my siblings could have some. I wasn’t offering to chipmin when she had to put things back at the checkout because she didn’t have enough cash - I thought she should be better at tracking her purchases. I did what I had to do for myself, and yeah, I watched my brothers and sisters, but I was mean to them. And I made dinner, but it often wasn’t good. And I helped my mom clean an office after track practice, but as soon as I could, I made my younger sister take over. I got a full scholarship to Colgate, and I was quite an arrogant ass to my parents when I came home the first two years. I felt like they were stupid, they didn’t understand money, they were taken advantage of, they had too many kids and no communication skills, no ability to run a family in a functional way. What I am saying is, give me a break with the stereotype of the hard working, totally deserving, low income child who is one step from sainthood. I worked hard because school was a refuge for me, and teachers were the only people who gave me any sense that I was something special. I didn’t mind working for even $1/hr, because every hour I spent out of my house was an hour out of my house. And no one was paying me at home to pick up the slack of my clinically depressed mother or my intermittently present Dad. People do what they have to do. Some of my sibs had a much harder road than I did. But in our 40s and 50s most of us are doing very well. And we care for our parents, because they didn’t have a great childhood either. But enough with the poor people worship. Poor people can suck just as much as everyone else.
@SkepticalOfMost I wholeheartedly disagree. This case is most emphatically not about sour grapes. It’s about a system that is now openly corrupt, testing that can be gamed easily, university officials who are on the take, parents whose greed and desire to boast about their kids in some fancy school knows no bounds, shady college “consultants”, “development donors” etc. There is nothing redeeming about any of these actors, and it’s not sour grapes.
That the SAT and ACT can be gamed like this and still have so much prominence is INCREDIBLE. One of my DCs took the high school entry equivalent (SSAT) and that test does not even require ID to enter the testing facility! The standardized testing regime at all levels seriously needs to up their security if they are so critical.
I was a big believer in the concept of “elite” schools (which I went to and so do my DCs) and how they somehow differed from “other” schools. I don’t believe that any more. This scandal is disgusting beyond belief, and it greatly undermines the concept of academic integrity at all levels. I am no longer encouraging my DCs to do anything except their respective best. I couldn’t care less what school they go to now as long as they are happy, safe, and doing their best.
I do not want my DCs hanging out with a bunch of spoiled domestic or international rich kids whose parents bought them entry into these “elite” schools. I thought these schools were assembling a collection of high performing individuals, but I no longer believe that.
Call it sour grapes or whatever you want. Based on your name, I’m surprised you’re not more like me on this!
It doesn’t have to do with “worshipping” poor people because they are good (or "saints). It’s because they are achieving at high levels without all of the basics (that’s before you even get to the tremendous advantages) enjoyed by most kids; they are often overcoming extreme deprivation to achieve at the same high level. These students are prized for good reason.
The fact that you were by your own admission mean, judgmental, and resentful doesn’t suddenly make your accomplishments less impressive. And other poor kids who achieve at great levels are not necessarily mean, judgmental, and resentful. Maybe you would have been that way (or even worse) if you were rich.
@mynameiswhatever , the whole system is not openly corrupt. This is not Tammany Hall, or the Venezuelan government. A crook exploited areas of weakness. The admissions system for elite colleges is far from perfect. Standardized tests are far from perfect and it is NOT easy to game them. Singer went to great lengths to conceal his tactics. He remained undiscovered for years and was only caught because of an unlinked investigation.
If all these colleges simply went by highest grades and test scores people would complain about that too. People will always find ways to cheat and game things. This is the fault of greedy individuals and not the colleges or the testing companies.
Re: #2292 and Yale soccer players’ suspicions about some players who did not appear to have the skill level to be on a D1 team, and who came from wealthy families
The (legitimate) soccer players (a) had much more frequent contact with the suspect ones in practices and games (or noticed their frequent absence due to “injury” or whatever), and (b) are much better at noticing whether someone is good at soccer than a non-soccer-playing university administrator.
They could go to community college, build up a college record without cheating, and then transfer to a college that considers only college record for transfer students.
LATimes article (paywall) today with the headline that more wealthy parents likely to be swept up in this scandal. The feds are issuing subpoenas. Hopefully those involved won’t just get community service and a fine but actual prison time. Only a severe sentence will deter this from continuing.
It’s perplexing how people throw criticism of admissions departments for these colleges under into drawer labelled as sour grapes. I wonder why objective neutrality is always discouraged on this topic. We keep getting evidences about the flaws in the system but some people don’t want to open their eyes.
What if the innocent beneficiaries have already graduated?
There could also be different classes of innocent beneficiaries, some who would not have gotten in without cheating, and some who would have (some parents may have cheated even when the kid could have gotten in honestly).
@mynameiswhatever : " I am no longer encouraging my DCs to do anything except their respective best."
I would hope that was at the core of your message to them from the start.
It is precisely because others have been acting so poorly, and until now benefitting from those bad acts, that we must urge and encourage each of our children to continue “to do…their respective best.”
In doing so, perhaps we can establish, or re-establish, the collective best.
-Respectfully, W2E