I agree with the lovely @Lindagaf. While the system is flawed, it is not corrupt. And let’s not forget about all the financial aid these schools give out, and the real attempt many schools make on recruiting socio economic diversity. It’s easy to look at this scandal and try to project onto it all that is wrong with the educational system from elementary school on up, and those issues are pressing and need to be addressed, but as @Lindagaf pointed out, this scandal is about greedy cheaters.
@Lindagaf We are giving far too much credit to the testing system. As mentioned, the SSAT doesn’t even ask for ID and is a key metric for admission to “elite” prep schools. The SAT and ACT had two test centers in Houston and Los Angeles with all sorts of fun stuff going on for years, as you point out. Alarm bells should have been ringing for years about the results from these centers. I’m not even going to the accommodation issue, which I think has been done and dusted here. How exactly are the testing agencies blame-free when for many of these schools, the results of these test are so crucial and the security is so lax?
That you can buy a building etc (Singer’s “back door”) and get your non-performing kid into an elite school is not academic integrity. It’s legal but it is not academic honesty. I appreciate that this is not a perfect world, but from what I gather, when you reduce the number of unhooked merit-based spots after taking into account (a) those who gamed the system like the Singer students, (b) development donor offspring, and © legacies, what’s left? I don’t know how many spots are really left for the merit-based students. Certainly, there could be more transparency in the process, particularly where the universities are charging an application fee for the process with a clear impression is given that this is a merit-based process.
Moreover, the universities hired these athletic directors and coaches and did not audit these results. They really should have. To me, the universities are not without blame. Whether their level of fault is enough to withstand the lawsuits is another question.
As you point out, something this blatant went for years at these “elite” schools. That is telling without saying anything more about whether the system is corrupt or not.
- There are obviously less rigorous majors at all schools. Not to put down any major but the academic rigor in Communications doesn't compare to that of Engineering. For many of the cheaters (especially those in business) it is the degree from the institution, regardless of major, that they are looking to open doors.
- First, I don't consider USC or USD to be "elite" but that is my opinion. I believe, in the case of Olivia, she wanted to go to school with her friends (with a father on the Board of Trustees, you don't think people pulled strings for that kid?) and they didn't view USC as an educational institution. USC has a "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" element to it. For Olivia, it was about the USC experience and using it to promote her brand. This wasn't the only time that they used their resources to ensure that she was successful. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6809589/Lori-Loughlins-daughter-second-cheating-scandal-alleged-rigged-contest.html
@Nrdsb4 What I mean is that poor kids are not necessarily better people than regular middle class or better kids, and a lot of the time it is reduced to the simple “poor hard working kid”. I NEVER begrudged my friends their SAT prep. I taught a prep class my senior year, for free, because I felt bad that these kids just didn’t get the intuitive “tricks” to taking the test. It was easy for me. I wasn’t working HARD. Mcdonald’s isn’t HARD. Babysitting isn’t HARD. I was a terrible basketball player, a slow CC runner, and my one and only real athletic skill was an oddly specific ability to jump high. Not long, just high. I worked longer maybe and had less free time, but it was my life and it was fine.
I saw middle class kids who worked WAY harder than I did for the same (or worse) grades. They were working to meet their parents high expectations; I was working to meet those of my teachers. The reward was the same. It felt good. Yes, I am very grateful I got the chance I did, but I’m still not sure I “deserved” it more than a kid who worked their butt off.
@mynameiswhatever
Well said! Can’t agree more.
How do you prove a negative?
So people can cheat and bribe people to get what they want and as long as nobody can prove the beneficiary knew it’s okay? The seats are either for sale or they’re not. Are your public school board seats for sale? What about your local/state/national government?
Someone had to know. Where were the checks and balances?
I realize it is not unusual to have walk-ons quit the team once they are in, but I would think someone would be tracking it. And wouldn’t someone in the department ever get curious and Google search things on their own? Did Olivia Jade ever post that she was an athlete? I don’t see the universities as blameless either, especially with regard to the athletic piece of this.
USC advertises a lot of merit scholarships for upper-middle class kids, and they DO give out a lot for high stats kids - but in reality most of those awards are less than than $5000. Not enough to make unaffordable affordable. Don’t give USC too much credit.
i am curious to know, whether these kinds of scandals stop at the college level, what about elite MBA and law programs? I am guessing (and hoping) lives of Medical schools are too harsh and long for the rich and famous…
Just had to quote you @Hanna as this really resonated - "What a bucket of hooey. The Whiffenpoofs do ten times more to bring the Yale College community together than the golf team. But there are no Yale employees empowered to hand out spots in the class to the nation’s leading basses – even though they are born, not made, and no one without the natural gift can ever be trained to sing a low B.
The Ivy League schools retain their athletic teams (even when zero students show up at sailing meets to bask in their supposed glory) because alumni from those sports would go berserk if the teams were cut. That’s it. That’s the whole reason. Maybe I should have gone to Reed."
Just kind of wryly nodding along as my 2 kids still in high school are completely non-athletic (like the rest of the family) and both sing baritone :-). My 14 year old whose voice is still developing hit a low C# with his voice teacher yesterday. My 17 year old junior’s favorite school of those we’ve visited so far is Reed (and one of the selling features was when the tour guide mentioned the almost complete lack of intercollegiate athletics).
@gallentjill - back to the question about the currently matriculated side door entrants. Thanks agree they should not be allowed to stay where they are, and if their names become public they probably don’t want to. I am just not sure how much help they should get in the transfer process. They already got preferential treatment once. I am
Interested in hearing thoughts on this.
This admissions cheating scandal is only a symptom of the entire system being rigged, when it comes to college admissions. Some students get extra time on standardized tests, but the company that makes the test hasn’t bothered to factor the ability to work very quickly and accurately out of the test To compensate for the extended time that many get, they should remove time pressure from the test altogether, and give plenty of time for the average student to comfortably do his/her best work. In other words, if some students get time and a half, give ALL students time and a half. Same would go for keyboarding - if some students can use a keyboard for essays, then just let all students use a keyboard for essays. If some students pay for professionally written essays, professionally produced media materials, etc, then just get rid of that section of the application. But the college board doesn’t care about this - they only care about their profit - and the colleges don’t seem to care, either.
In addition, the colleges are carving out admissions for students with lower qualifications - be it for legacies, big donors, racial preferences, athletes, particular non-academic talents. Meanwhile, that whole system is being subsidized by the taxpayers, because private colleges’ endowments and real estate are tax-exempt, plus they receive big government grants for research.
The problem is not the cheaters - the problem is the system that encourages and rewards cheating in the college admissions process. Thousands and thousands of hardworking kids who played by the rules, only to wind up at their safety school, kicking themselves for having spent four years killing themselves, studying as hard as they could, practicing sports and instruments for thousands of hours, volunteering for hundreds of hours, FOUNDING THEIR OWN CHARITIES, for goodness sake, going short on sleep for years, and they still couldn’t get in, with perfect grades, perfect SATs that they actually achieved on their own, without accommodations, all asking themselves, “Why did I work so hard?”
It’s time to tax the private colleges, and suspend their government funding. It’s time to acknowledge that the highly competitive - admission colleges are mostly the exact same thing as the country clubs that only admitted wealthy, influential, WASP men. Yes, they are preferentially admitting a few people with darker complexions (who mostly are the children of highly educated immigrant professionals, not the descendants of US slaves), but in general, they serve as an exclusive club for the children of the rich and famous, all subsidized by the American taxpayer.
@makemesmart Good question, I’m curious too. Obviously, there are no sports teams for manipulation in that manner, but it’s likely that some at least attempt to cheat on the LSAT/GMAT. Even more likely cheat while in college to gain the GPA that is so important for graduate admissions.
I keep hearing that the kids shouldn’t be kicked out. I completely disagree. First, I am sure EVERY kid knew. Every single one. They knew when their 1000 SAT went up to 1400 without studying or taking the test at the same place as everyone else. They knew when they didn’t write their own college essay (one essay was about their experience on the crew team) or got extra time for a disability they didn’t have. Even though they might not have known the exact details, they knew where they stood and they knew they were helped. Every action has risk and the risk their parents took had a detrimental effect on them. Many kids have parents who won’t or can’t pay to take a college prep course, or have someone review their essays. They also have to accept their parents limitation. I think the only way for a situation like this to be truly rectified is for every student expelled and every degree rescinded. If those coaches played an ineligible player every game would be forfeited and championship removed. As long as the kids would benefit parents will continue to take the risk. The only way to stop this and any future problem is to negate all benefits from these actions.
As to the parents gullibility, I have a friend who shared with me that she was calling around to private college counselors and talked to Singer on the phone. He wanted $2500 to just have an initial meeting and guaranteed he could get her into an elite college. She knew immediately he was operating improperly.
I can see how this happened. There is a strong town/gown relationship between athletics and donors, it is especially strong at USC. Athletics operates on the fringe of the University and slots are looked at as tools for coaches to be successful, whether that is get more money for their program or themselves. I do have confidence going forward that this particular side door will be closed as both admissions will be much less willing to leave decisions completely in the hands of the coaching staffs. And maybe other side doors will be reviewed as well. We can only hope.
@jym626, I don’t think it’s the responsibility of the staff at these colleges to help the students transfer. Their legal teams would probably heavily discourage it. What could they possibly say? If the students are expelled the courses won’t transfer. I think the most they could do is acknowledge that the student attended.
If a student is found to have been admitted under false pretenses, he/she should be dismissed. I suppose they should be able to use their college transcript to transfer.
I am curious about the students who cheated their way in and graduated. Are these colleges not as demanding as I thought? Did the kids cheat their way through college as well? Or some combo of both?
If I were a current student or alumni of one of these schools I would be mad as hell. I do think that graduating unqualified students might devalue my degree
“I agree that this thread is permeated by sour grapes, IMO.”
@hebegebe said: “Not always. Some people who are posting here already have children attending elite colleges.”
Yes, it isn’t everyone of course. But, it’s very prevalent here.
@Gudmom, I was a low income kid too. I’m sorry you don’t appreciate people who empathize with others because of the struggles they’ve encountered. It’s unfortunate that you spent your youth being resentful and unpleasant, but that was a choice. It has no bearing on the thousands of other hard working, low income kids who made different choices. I hope you’re on a better path now.
@Gudmom says: “But enough with the poor people worship. Poor people can suck just as much as everyone else.”
I don’t think anyone is worshipping poor people. I think people are acknowledging their road is more unique than students from families of means and advantages.
@northwesty - “It is quite ironic that the standardized tests are now one of the prime areas where the priveleged focus effort and investment (usually legal but sometimes not) in order to add to their other existing advantages their kids have.”
Couldn’t agree more! Just another tool that can be gamed (and profited from!).
Life ain’t fair and nothing’s perfect. Any new rules will eventually be gamed, too.