After dozens of mentions of “sour grapes”, I just can’t take it anymore.
“Sour grapes” would be someone responding to this scandal by saying they no longer find elite schools desirable.
The fox in the fable claims to not want the grapes that it cannot have. It doesn’t complain about how it is unfairly being denied the grapes. No instance of the phrase I see in this thread seems to address anyone acting like the fox.
If we’re going to be discussing elite academics let’s get our Aesop right.
I just read a paper by Caroline Hoxby that said while elite schools have become more selective, most schools have become less selective, because (1) the number of student slots has grown faster than the number of potential students and (2) the best students now are more likely to go to the elite schools and less likely to go to local schools.
There are plenty of places for “regular” students to attend.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w15446.pdf
“Selectivity” in this study is defined by the quality of the students admitted to the school, not the number of students rejected.
Not too surprising for a private prep school in California. Based on college matriculation lists for some other private prep schools, they do favor private colleges much more strongly than students in general. USC happens to be a highly ranked private college that is large enough that it can take relatively large volumes of graduates from a private prep school.
@“Cardinal Fang”
But not the elite or other "hot’ schools. And that is where many regular students want to go, their dream schools.
Thx @“Cardinal Fang”
Problem is getting our kids to want to go and not feel like they are “losers” by society. That’s where we all can help change that in our own lives. And I will be very careful around these issues myself. This whole sorry tale has opened my eyes to some things.
@privatebanker Kids get so wrapped up in rankings as well. It’s a challenge to sometimes get them to look at a program within the school.
Probably increasing inequality generally is part of the driver for this, in increasing the “elite or bust” perception of society generally. Perhaps the top 5% SES has a strong sense of economic and social status insecurity, in that there is more room for downward mobility than upward mobility, the paths upward are fiercely competitive for those who are not already at the top, and downward mobility is seen as a horrible thing (how many “middle class who do not get college financial aid” families would be able to live comfortably on the median income for their metro regions?). The perception (whether correct or not) of elite colleges as gateways or gatekeepers with respect to upward mobility (starting from the top 5%) drives desire to get one’s kids into them.
@laclife:
“After dozens of mentions of “sour grapes”, I just can’t take it anymore.”
Thank you for the Aesop reference. I actually didn’t remember this was the origin of the common used phrase. That being said, the way it was used in this thread is the common use. I could appreciate how it affects your sensibilities…maybe try to look past it’s turning literature on its head and just follow the sentiment…
“Problem is getting our kids to want to go and not feel like they are “losers” by society. That’s where we all can help change that in our own lives. And I will be very careful around these issues myself. This whole sorry tale has opened my eyes to some things.”
So who makes the kids feel like they are “losers” by society and why?
Usually the uber rich, entitled, selfish types willing to cheat that desire the most expensive PRIVATE colleges to flaunt prestige, status, and wealth, and look down on others at more affordable high quality PUBLIC colleges just for the sake of doing so!
According to last year’s stats, that number is a little inflated. Here is USC’s 18-19 Admission Profile: http://admission.usc.edu/wp-content/uploads/Freshman-Profile-2019.pdf
Most Represented Public High Schools
Arcadia HS; Arcadia, CA 21
Foshay Learning Center; Los Angeles, CA 19
Mira Costa HS; Manhattan Beach, CA 18
PV Peninsula HS; Rolling Hills Estates, CA 16
South Pasadena HS; South Pasadena, CA 15
Troy HS; Fullerton, CA 14
Most Represented Independent & Parochial Schools
Loyola HS; Los Angeles, CA 22
Harvard-Westlake; North Hollywood, CA 12
Flintridge Prep; La Cañada, CA 12
Mater Dei HS; Santa Ana, CA 12
Punahou School; Honolulu, HI 12
Oaks Christian School, Thousand Oaks, CA 11
I’ve heard of all of the schools listed above except for Foshay Learning Center. :-?
@parentologist Please help me reconcile your opinions;
“This admissions cheating scandal is only a symptom of the entire system being rigged, when it comes to college admissions…colleges are carving out admissions for students with lower qualifications - be it for legacies, big donors, racial preferences, athletes, particular non-academic talents…It’s time to acknowledge that the highly competitive - admission colleges are mostly the exact same thing as the country clubs that only admitted wealthy, influential, WASP men. Yes, they are preferentially admitting a few people with darker complexions (who mostly are the children of highly educated immigrant professionals, not the descendants of US slaves), but in general, they serve as an exclusive club for the children of the rich and famous”
And your previous post of disappointment of your daughters denial as a legacy at U Penn;
“I think that virtually ALL of us Penn alums feel that way! The kind of stats that you need nowadays for Penn, would have been a shoe-in for the top four schools in the country way back when.” & “kid is legacy, and parent was hoping that Ivy would take into consideration certain extenuating circumstances…”
These views seem irreconcilable but perhaps I am being dim, please clarify.
Thank you. I get it now.
“The sour grapes is when it’s evident the cheating isn’t the focus. It’s the complaints about demographics that one isn’t in “taking” spots from one’s scion. …Saying schools should go to a lottery system so admiited kid’s don’t feel smarter, etc. This thread is littered with these posts.”
I thought the lottery suggestion was quite different. It was to replace essays, legacies and race/SES based tiebreakers with a more transparent tie-breaking system, considering how many applicants meet the alleged criteria for admission. I think the kids would benefit from this to be honest. I don’t view it as sour grapes (or whining) at all. But then, I’m used to lottery-based school and sports admission so perhaps I’ve just been socialized.
@Fisherman99 I am not opening a debate. But since you quoted me, it seems as if a response is ok.
I disagree with your premise as the entire scope of the problem. Do you know who’s making kids feels this way.
-Other kids.
-First generation parents who only know a few brands.
-The internet loaded with “admission reaction” YouTubers. That only seem to get into Stanford and Yale.
-Middle class parents who want a different life for their kids.
-Parents who have to pay more than most but aren’t rich and don’t want to pay a lot for a degree they don’t know is high quality
-Parents and family members and teachers who remember when 35 percent got into Harvard each year and u wherever was the school you end-up going to if you have no other choices.
-Parents rich and poor and everything in between, who want Johnny or Jill to follow in their footsteps or the school they hear about at work at known as impossible to get into u. And state u just won’t cut it at the office or with peers.
So yes some snobs and rich people can be the ones involved. But most people aren’t really that rich even if affluent and our kids don’t know these people either.
I think this pressure starts at school and is inflamed at home by parents who want there kids to have an easier life than they did.
@privatebanker The Y still has those camps. You can still sponsor a kid. Same for parks and rec. We got a scholarship when I was in school. The Church is a major donor, as are private and secular groups.
@MmeZeeZee that’s so good to hear. I have to look them up to maybe help out. Thanks for that info.
I think the lottery suggestion is sour grapes when the motivation for desiring it is so the “admiited kids don’t feel smarter”, which is what one parent here said. Also, I believe it’s hubris to suggest these over century old institutions don’t know why they constructed an incoming class and need a lottery system. This suggestion is to satisfy our ego, IMO.
“My student x applied to school x and despite being clearly higher than the 75th percentile was denied. It must be yield protection. And it doesn’t matter because it was never a top choice and will be going to school z which everyone knows is ranked higher”
Would this be properly categorized as “sour grapes” under an Aesopian standard ?
Edit. Said post would occur on the admitted students thread with the happy kids who got in reading along.
@ShanFerg3 I don’t think that centuries old institutions are adapting to the mismatch between applicant pool size and available spots, no.
Add in a dash of lack of foresight with respect to increasing willingness of their target population to game the system (not by cheating but by sacrificing an entire youth to the Ivy idol), and yeah, they should reconsider.
The current system was set up when other social norms and limitations were in place. Many of those geographic, class, and social boundaries that kept admission from being too much like a day at the races, are gone. I think many of the old founders of the Ivies would be aghast if they saw the current system, and I’m not talking about cheating.
I just mean even if the same kids would have been admitted, it seems absurd for them to spend their childhood going through the testing /sport/music gauntlet to this extent. Let them breathe. We will all be better for it.
@Fisherman99 It doesn’t help that Hollywood scripts more times than not promote top tier schools if characters are headed to college. Harvard, Penn, Notre Dame, Michigan, Princeton, Yale, UCLA. You never see a kid wearing a sweatshirt for a middle tier public. We’ve done this to ourselves and our kids.
@Fisherman99 I am not opening a debate. But since you quoted me, it seems as if a response is ok.
"I disagree with your premise as the entire scope of the problem. Do you know who’s making kids feels this way.
-Other kids.
-First generation parents who only know a few brands.
-The internet loaded with “admission reaction” YouTubers. That only seem to get into Stanford and Yale.
-Middle class parents who want a different life for their kids.
-Parents who have to pay more than most but aren’t rich and don’t want to pay a lot for a degree they don’t know is high quality
-Parents and family members and teachers who remember when 35 percent got into Harvard each year and u wherever was the school you end-up going to if you have no other choices.
-Parents rich and poor and everything in between, who want Johnny or Jill to follow in their footsteps or the school they hear about at work at known as impossible to get into u. And state u just won’t cut it at the office or with peers.
So yes some snobs and rich people can be the ones involved. But most people aren’t really that rich even if affluent and our kids don’t know these people either.
I think this pressure starts at school and is inflamed at home by parents who want there kids to have an easier life than they did."
@privatebanker…True, not just the “uber rich”. However the pressure “inflamed at home by parents”…usually of at least a solid middle class and usually higher upper class economic status.
Denigrating other classes trying desperately to move up is perpetuated by the elite wealthy as well that try to separate themselves from the “proletariat” and don’t want anymore competition at the “top”.