Feds uncover admissions test cheating plot

Applying to College
2561

Well, there’s always Faber College. Or Grand Lakes University.

The problem is, too many kids don’t properly research their options. And don’t realize that a top holistic college needs to see more in you than stats and some hs titles or awards. Even on this thread, people keep referring to “merit” as stats and hs accomplishments and forget the importance of the right thinking, choices, and more. The whole person, as it comes through, with the app being the vehicle. It’s not as simple as a hs brag sheet.

2562

@MmeZeeZee “it seems absurd for them to spend their childhood going through the testing /sport/music gauntlet to this extent. Let them breathe. We will all be better for it.”

I agree with elements of what you are suggesting, but in my experience the most successful students don’t view these effort as a stepping stone to elite schools. Instead they have real interest and passion for the activities you describe.

I agree parents, society, educators etc shouldn’t push kids into a stressed out lifestyle just to gain entrance into an Ivy. But at the same time the elite schools shouldn’t be obligated to change what they are looking for as long as kids exist who thrive under this criteria.

My 2 cents.

2563

@Fisherman99

I don’t think it’s that coordinated an effort at the weekly proletariat smackdown roundtable within the secret rich person community club.

But everyone has a view. I really do respect yours but do not fully agree.

But heck that’s ok. It’s America and we can still freely speak our minds.

We can shake hands on that.

2564

[Aside]
The point of Sour Grapes in the fable is simply a way that a person deals with disappointment “It really wasn’t all that great anyway”.

It can be used positively, as in “I didn’t get into Harvard, but is was never a good fit, the weather was too cold, I wouldn’t have fit in with the other students, etc. I’m really happy that I went to UCSD instead”. On the other hand, it can be used in a negative way, “I didn’t get into Harvard, because the only way to get in is to be a cheater or to know somebody, so they’re all cheaters and unqualified people anyway, so that’s why I didn’t go and went to UCSD instead”.

The difference between the two is that the first (who we shall call Janet) does not belittle the people who did get into Harvard, did not indulge in bitterness towards Harvard and the students there, and has some self reflection. I’m sure that Janet will enjoy college a lot more, do well, and forget about their Harvard rejection, except when somebody else says that they were rejected, and then Janet will say something like “I was rejected too, and I’m glad, because I had a great time in college, LOL”.

The second person (who we shall call Jason), belittles the people who did manage to get into Harvard, obsesses on the perceived crimes of Harvard, and does not spend any time on self reflection. Throughout their college years Jason will gnaw at their rejection, nurse their grievance, and likely waste a lot of time and emotional energy on dwelling on the unfairness of the world. This will poison Jason’s enjoyment of their college years, since it will all be colored with the taint of bitterness and anger. Jason will constantly have their rejection on their mind, and any mention of Harvard in any context can set off an unpleasant 10 minute rant.

Like the tale of Sour Grapes, this aside also has a moral - be Janet, not Jason.

(Names were chosen randomly, as were likely genders)
[/aside]

2565

Thanks @MWolf I am always blown away with how many smart people are involved with CC. Learning a lot.

2566

@ShanFerg3 and @privatebanker get out of my head. Lol. I am really trying to understand Why people feel so personally injured by a college’s choice to not admit their child. We have tied our perceived success to a portal update for Becky or Bobby, and then complain because they feel like failures when they dont get accepted to school x, or y. I have two engineering degrees from RPI, and I am a full-time SAHM. Am I am failure? My one best friend has degrees from UPenn and Stanford, and she is now a family photographer. My other best friend went to Northwestern, and then UMBC, and she is the director of parks for the largest park system in the country. Which one of them is a success? We have to stop equating success with a school, career, car, neighborhood. Success is finding your passion, and doing that thing. Success is having people trust your word, and knowing you will meet your commitments. Success is doing your best, and when it isn’t good enough to get something, being able to regroup, and push forward into the next opportunity. Success isn’t an acceptance to a school on someone else’s list of top schools. Success is finding what is the right fit for you…the right college, right career/job, right spouse, right place to live, right way to give back. That’s success. But maybe, that’s just my crazy opinion.

2567

@MmeZeeZee what leads you to believe these institutions haven’t adjusted to the applicant pool and are admitting the class they desire? Also, as parents, who said our children have to pursue interests they aren’t passionate about to satisfy what we think these adcom’s want to see on a resume? I certainly didn’t do this. I introduced my daughter to various activities and let her dictate what sparked her passion. There were times when I implored her to lessen her fencing practice because her courseload was immense and I wanted her to sleep more. She told me this is what makes her happy and gives her a mental break from academic pressures. This is why I supported it.

I don’t feel the answer is to implore the elite universities to restructure their admission policy. Not only is it not realistic, it isn’t necessary. What we should be doing, IMO, is educating our children to the admission landscape and not have their self esteem dictated by an University’s adcom. I told my daughter before she applied that I know how amazing she is. Schools admit for various reasons and it would be their loss more than hers if she didn’t get admitted to her first choice. She smiled and said thank you. And, I could see she agreed.

2568

I can’t be the only solidly middle class+ parent who legitimately considered “fit” for their children. This scandal seems to have painted a rather broad stroke for how parents consider undergraduate studies for their kids. I have to believe there are far more parents like me who are giving their kids every possible opportunity for the best school that “fits” them without considering drastic steps like cheating the system. Completely understanding that for not our SES and all the opportunities that go along with that, my kids would probably end up at different schools than the ones they’ve matriculated to, which is another discussion that we should all be more concerned with.

2569

“I don’t think it’s that coordinated an effort at the weekly proletariat smackdown roundtable within the secret rich person community club.”

@privatebanker…of course no coordinated “weekly proletariat smackdown” of the rich person club lol.

However, the “rich person club” wants to keep it exclusive and the “proletariat” out.

With more economic inequality, the situation will only get worse!

2570

@Mwolf thanks for your insight on sour grapes. I detailed some comments in post 2550 and would welcome your views if so inclined. Sour grapes at all, and if so of what sort?

2571

@sportingclaymom ?‍♀️ The only status that matters to us is “right fit.”

2572

And I know a graduate of HYPSM who is a plumber, although I don’t know how good of a plumber. Admission to a school is just a starting point; it’s what you do with that opportunity that counts the most. Realistically, for what most people want to do in life, there are many schools that offer more than enough opportunities.

2573

@Fisherman99 You’re probably right. I was very poor and I am no longer. As an aside, I am no happier.

I was happy then and happy now. There was a certain excitement of the pursuit or the chase from one place to another that is unfortunately gone. But first world problems.

2574

@mdphd92 I am sorry but your friend the plumber is most likely a member of the evil rich guy club. At least my plumber is. Ouch they cost.

2575

I sometimes use the comparison to Olympic goals. If you want some pinnacle, you work toward it. You need to win the races, develop an awareness of your own strengths, an informed strategy, and put in the time on what matters toward that goal…not just what makes you happy today. Many kids do put in that effort. That’s not inauthentic. But it sure isn’t leaning back. But the supreme factor is, you need to understand what the judges want to see. (Here, adcoms.)

But it is a problem, in my mind, when others ascribe greatness to their kids or their ways, their hours, or these few highly desired schools they did get into, thus furthering the lemmings rush, the superficiality. Some pay lip service to how any great kid can thrive anywhere, but it seems laced with how their own kid triumphed, got into such great choices, and all. Ok, that’s a side comment.

Anyway, the complaints about how top schools choose admits should be based on some deeper knowledge of what those colleges do want. Not guesses, not after-the-fact assumptions about who has what obvious markers, missing the rest of the valid, significant elements that can make or break.

And I’m still aghast at this scandal. Did anyone link comments that have been published that show parents literally stating, ‘a better shcool than ASU’ or asking if someone can retake a test or do an online course for their child? Not even smart enough not to allow a paper trail.

2576

@Fisherman99 It doesn’t help that Hollywood scripts more times than not promote top tier schools if characters are headed to college. Harvard, Penn, Notre Dame, Michigan, Princeton, Yale, UCLA. You never see a kid wearing a sweatshirt for a middle tier public. We’ve done this to ourselves and our kids.

@lastone03…Very true! My father went to USC and preferred I attend UC Riverside. Received a top notch education there at a much more affordable price which my dad appreciated. NOT going to see a Hollywood script with a UC Riverside sweatshirt though (yet) lol! The UC name alone regardless of campus location has always had enough cachet for myself…not for many at the “wealthy” high school I attended back in the day. UCSB, Cal Poly SLO, and SDSU were the “popular” choices…beach and party lifestyle caused a good number to drop out unfortunately.

2577

@privatebanker I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with being a plumber.

2578

My older son is a recent Harvard grad who is what I would consider an “academic admit.” We have no affiliation with Harvard and have not donated a dime. S did not come from a feeder school, but was an exceptional self-driven student particularly strong in math and science. He only decided to apply at the end of his junior year when all of his SATs and APs came back perfect and he had national recognition in some subjects. Anyway, he has said many times that Harvard would be awful with a student body comprised mostly of people just like him. One of it’s greatest strengths is its diversity - people exceptional at all sorts of things, including athletics, the arts, and probably some with famous parents who have already lived extraordinary lives at a young age. The only group he thought Harvard could do without was the extremely insular and arrogant NYC prep crowd (Trinity, Collegiate, etc.) who acted like Harvard was just a way station in their lives.

2579

@lookingforward “Some pay lip service to how any great kid can thrive anywhere, but it seems laced with how their own kid triumphed, got into such great choices, and all.”

I think it can be both/and. You can believe that a hardworking, driven kid can achieve anywhere, and also allow that kid to find the place where they believe they fit. That place may be HYPSM, OSU or NCCU. or it may be the local CC. The point is to let THEM decide, and dont impose your insecurities on them. If you truly believe they are great, tell them, and encourage them to “Go be great” wherever they are.

2580

With respect to top tier colleges, the historical top tiers seem to have been more inherently academic and interesting than those of today. Note that Harvard, Princeton and Yale aligned with relative outliers such as Reed and Carleton; Stanford appeared to be a West Coast equivalent of the University of Rochester; and Penn and Duke aligned with the innovative Antioch.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ykQEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA100&lpg=PA100&dq=life+magazine+1960+college+admission+tufts+bowdoin&source=bl&ots=5BKi5WV8SQ&sig=GFl_LycVnJV8AGIXLX2P9kW97I0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sO1TT4uPK-jm0QG8ifC3DQ#v=onepage&q&f=false