Ferguson Part Deux - No charges to be filed!

[saintfan]

<p>Yes I have which is exactly what we are talking about. However, that could work against you if you have the bad luck to run into the wrong guy.</p>

[LasMa]

<p>Exactly, eb. I felt foolish, but not afraid.</p>

<p>Marie, one doesn’t have to assault a cop to be in danger – if one is a black man. A guy was shot by a cop as he was *complying * with the cop’s orders to show his license. That wouldn’t have happened to me.</p>

[LasMa]

<p>Marie, this thread has Ferguson in the title, but it’s clear to most of us by now that what happened in Ferguson is emblematic. Something is very wrong in many parts of this country, as we saw once again this week in Cleveland with the killing of 12 year old Tami Rice.</p>

[marie1234]

<p>Emblematic is exactly what Ferguson is. We agree. I just happen to think getting people all riled about a fake story is a set back not progress. Probably, we disagree there.</p>

[sally305]

<p>What “fake story”?</p>

[dietz199]

<p>@sally305. Student ID’s are issued simply because you are a student. One does not need to be a citizen, one does not even need to be here legally. So a student ID proves only that you are a student. A gun permit requires a background check and an acceptable form of picture ID. Illegals are not supposed to be issued guns. So, the question then becomes…which is easier to get without being a citizen, non-felon and of legal age…a student ID or a gun permit?</p>

[sally305]

<p>dietz, how would a student be listed in the voter rolls if he/she wasn’t registered at his or her address?</p>

<p>And please–the right-wing myth about “illegals” risking EVERYTHING to cast a vote is so ridiculous that it is not even worth responding to.</p>

[catahoula]

<p>Whoa.

But what’s scarey in all this is the absolute certainty some “law and order” types possess that people assaulted or wrongfully executed by “Officers of The Law” must have “had it coming”, certainly if they are members of a racial minority. But, wait until the inevitable demographics shift places them in the unenviable position of being “the new racial minority”; An unfamiliar and troubling sense of vulnerability, and the feeling that they are no longer privileged with being judged on an individual basis, but seen as part and parcel of a demographic prone to a “predictable pathology”…When their children are viewed the way many black and brown children are viewed, and treated with the same disdain and condescension…Then understanding will break like light over the dawn horizon. But then, they won’t be “thugs” burning and looting local businesses, but rather “freedom fighters” rallying around the conviction that “The Tree of Liberty must now be watered with the blood of Patriots and Tyrants”, and that they must reclaim by any means necessary the “birthright of liberty” bequeathed to them by " The Original Founding Fathers". They’ll make Middle Eastern Jihad seem like school yard skirmishes, and the unrest in Ferguson seem like a sandbox temper tantrum.

That’s pretty monstrous, poet. Disturbing even, until you start looking for justification other than feelings and anecdotes. Reassuring that they’re kind of thin.</p>

[catahoula]

<p>Somewhere back a few pages was a caution about the use of data that hadn’t at least seen some attempt at normalization for SES, race, age, etc.</p>

<p>Since the root of the disagreement (sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong here) is about disparate treatment, it might be helpful to add one of the few studies I’ve seen that sheds light on the issue of racial profiling. From New Jersey, which is fitting since I remember that as being ground zero for the idea that race could be used as a shield against police attention:

Those results startled officials in the state attorney general’s office, who had assumed that the radar study would bolster their case that profiling was widespread. Instead, the study concluded that blacks make up 16 percent of the drivers on the turnpike and 25 percent of the speeders in the 65 m.p.h. zones, where complaints of profiling have been most common.

There may very well be some mitigating factors in the link - I didn’t peruse every word - but I don’t recall that the feds have backed off their embargo of the study itself. If they have, I’d love to know of it.</p>

<p>Hmm… if you want to see the .pdf of the study, rather than an explanation of what it means, you’ll have to google:
Study Suggests Racial Gap in Speeding in New Jersey duke.</p>

[dietz199]

<p>sally305 - What does giving an address have to do with ones’ legal standing to vote? Some families do an … um…address modification…just to get into a better school system, how does the address legitimize the vote? Students also tend to move on a regular basis - do you know any student that has the same address for 4 years? So again, what does an address prove?</p>

<p>As for the ‘right wing’ illegal snark…well…to quote George Clooney in Up in the Air… “I stereo type. It’s faster.” There are PC stereo types and non-PC stereo types…but that is fodder for another thread. But, if one expresses their stero types then one must be prepared to BE stereo typed.</p>

[sally305]

<p>dietz: people won’t risk the “better” life they think they are having in the U.S. to cast a vote, thus drawing unwanted attention to themselves and risking deportation. Please. Think about how stupid this would be.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>

dietz: people won’t risk the “better” life they think they are having in the U.S. to cast a vote, thus drawing unwanted attention to themselves and risking deportation. Please. Think about how stupid this would be.

</p>

<p>Yeah, but what about the hordes of people from Chicago who vote in elections every year despite having been deceased for years, sometimes decades prior to the election. What do those people have to lose by breaking the rules?</p>

[sally305]

<p>“Hordes”? Proof, please.</p>

[dietz199]

<p>Well…do 100,000 votes count as a hord???</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/04/where-theres-smoke-theres-fire-100000-stolen-votes-in-chicago”>http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/04/where-theres-smoke-theres-fire-100000-stolen-votes-in-chicago&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

As was demonstrated by the FBI in the Chicago case, such data matching can quickly turn up registration addresses that are vacant lots or busi­nesses-evidence of possible registration fraud. Similarly, if 100 individuals are registered at an address that is a single-family residence, that is clear evidence of fraud. The techniques devel­oped by the FBI in 1982 should be incorporated into the processes used by states today to verify the accuracy of the information in their voter reg­istration lists.</p>

<p>Recent cases in Wisconsin and Tennessee show that the tactics used in Chicago to steal votes have not been forgotten and are still in use today, despite the election “reforms” of recent years.</p>

<p>In Wisconsin-a state that John Kerry won by only 11,000 votes-the technique of running com­parisons between the voter registration list and other databases was employed in a 2004 investiga­tion of possible voter fraud in Milwaukee.[61] The Milwaukee Police Department’s Special Investiga­tions Unit, working with the U.S. Attorney’s Office, the local district attorney, and the FBI, used Google databases, motor vehicle records, telephone direc­tories, Assessor’s Office records, and U.S. Postal Service records to investigate allegations of voter fraud. They uncovered a variety of problems:</p>

<pre><code>5,217 “students” who were registered to vote at a polling place located within the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee who listed as their resi­dence an on-campus dormitory that housed only 2,600 students;
At least 220 ineligible felons who had voted;
370 addresses that were not legal residences in the city;
Residents of other states (such as a voter from Chicago) who registered and voted in Milwaukee;
Numerous staffers from out of state who were working for the Kerry campaign or the Environ­mental Victory Campaign, a political action committee, and who illegally registered and voted in Milwaukee; and
Hundreds of homeless individuals registered as living at office buildings, at store fronts, and in multiple locations who were “able to vote in different districts and, by sheer number, could have an impact on a closely contested local election.”[62]
</code></pre>

<p>In Tennessee, a state senate race in 2005 that was decided by only 13 votes led to the expulsion of the winner from the legislature after it was found that votes had been cast by individuals who were dead at the time of the election, felons whose vot­ing rights had not been restored, voters whose resi­dences were vacant lots, and voters who actually lived outside of the district. Three election workers in one precinct were convicted of 12 felonies for faking votes by making false entries on election documents and other misconduct, including forg­ing the signatures of deceased voters on ballot forms and falsely certifying vote totals.[63]

</p>

<p>Of special interest is the part where 5217 ‘student’ voters were registered in a dorm which houses 2600. There is the clear answer for why a student ID is useless as proof of valid voter registration.
…</p>

<p>…</p>

<p>Voter fraud in Chicago, in just one election, led to 100,000 phony votes,[64] bringing the defendants in this case within 5,000 votes of stealing the gov­ernorship of Illinois. This case of widespread fraud was broken wide open only because of the failed promise of a city job to one of the participants and the dogged determination of a United States Attor­ney who was willing to commit the time, resources, and manpower required for a massive investigation and multiple prosecutions. The Justice Department has never engaged in such an intense investigation since then, to the detriment of the electoral system.</p>

[emilybee]

<p>Going back to 1982 is a bit silly, imo - but I get that is pretty much all you have. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/08/06/a-comprehensive-investigation-of-voter-impersonation-finds-31-credible-incidents-out-of-one-billion-ballots-cast/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“A Federal Judge Searches for Voter Fraud in Wisconsin and Finds None - The Atlantic”>A Federal Judge Searches for Voter Fraud in Wisconsin and Finds None - The Atlantic;

<p><a href=“Rutgers voter fraud expert testifies at Wisconsin voter ID trial”>http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/231076211.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“Voter ID laws: A state-by-state map reveals how much voter fraud there is in the United States—almost none.”>http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/map_of_the_week/2012/09/voter_id_laws_a_state_by_state_map_reveals_how_much_voter_fraud_there_is_in_the_united_states_almost_none_.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[sally305]

<p>It’s not just that it’s old history (and yes, those of us who have lived in Chicago are well aware of the “vote early, vote often” punchline and the stories of dead people voting). It’s also your source, unfortunately. The Heritage Foundation was founded by the guy who invented the idea of calculated voter suppression:</p>

<p>

“Now many of our Christians have what I call the ‘goo-goo syndrome.’ Good government. They want everybody to vote. I don’t want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of people. They never have been from the beginning of our country, and they are not now. As a matter of fact our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.” —Paul Weyrich, 1980

</p>

[marie1234]

<p>That’s probably a candidly true statement of fact, right there. But I don’t see anything about suppression.</p>

[sally305]

<p>marie, Weyrich also founded ALEC, where the systematic voter suppression and redistricting laws have come from.</p>

[marie1234]

<p>Only if you think requiring ID’s equal suppression. Not every thinks that, obviously. </p>

[Nrdsb4]

<p>Every single time I have gone to a hospital, ER clinic, or surgery center, I have been asked for DL. Dr’s office not as often. I’m surprised there are some here who have gone to a hospital for treatment and have NEVER been asked for ID. </p>