<p>“marie, are you still in high school?”</p>
<p>Nope. And, believe it or not I know more than some of the questions and comments by some of the posters on this thread would indicate about police work, the law, and life in the inner city. And, probably James Bond, too.</p>
<p>“Actually, this theme has been known and discussed within the Black community and some other communities* long before Ferguson. The only folks who believe this started with Ferguson are those in deep denial, didn’t really learn much from US history, or those who are heavily sheltered due to environment and/or by their own volition.”</p>
<p>The protests started with Ferguson when someone decided it would be a good time to inflame the black community over the Michael Brown case. Yes, of course it was possible because of a sense of injustice that dates back basically forever and is the same reason OJ Simpson got away with murder and LA erupted in riots in the 1990’s among other examples. I assure you I’m not in the sheltered camp and have a pretty good grasp of historical context. What’s going on here is a real setback in race relations and is also likely to leave most of the communities in question in far worse shape because they are places that desperately need policing. Mean cops are not the biggest problem. However, I agree it’s nothing new. It’s just too bad. </p>
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<p>It can be, when you choose to go after an officer’s gun…</p>
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<p>I was interested to learn more about this so I did some searching. The following is an article from The Atlantic about whether police practices are responsible for the drop in crime seen in the 90’s, whether civil rights are violated in the process. and evaluates the trade-off if both are occurring.</p>
<p><a href=“Is Stop-and-Frisk Worth It? - The Atlantic”>Is Stop-and-Frisk Worth It? - The Atlantic;
<p>Btw, Bratton has been police commissioner in L.A. and Boston as well as NYC. If he is that respected by police departments such that he would be recruited in these other cities, it wouldn’t surprise me if his policies were copied once the success in the early 90’s with bring down NYC crime became evident.</p>
<p>It’s not possible that a method of policing caused the fall in NYC crime because the same fall occurred all over the country in big and little cities - with a few exceptions of course. Nearly all these other places do not have the resources to analyze crime data. </p>
<p>Back when the illegal immigrant arguments were raging at their fiercest, I spent some time going over crime stats for every single border state plus a bunch of others. I was surprised to find that crime peaked in the 1970’s all across the country and has been falling ever since - with of course a few exceptions (e.g., Detroit) and specific crime issues (e.g., meth and now heroin in rural areas). There really isn’t an obvious reason why. There is of course the famous papers about abortion and leaded gasoline that link falling crime to fewer unwanted children (particularly minority children in tough circumstances) and simply fewer people made dumber by lead. But … I don’t think it’s that easy to label a cause. I think there was a lot of crime and then there was less and that was true for a bunch of reasons. BTW, if you take the time, you can find actual police statistics for many cities and counties instead of the aggregated FBI stuff. It’s really striking how much crime has gone down since the 1970’s. And remember, that was before computers were mainstream.</p>
<p>As to the specifics of things like stop & frisk, those were oriented towards stopping “lifestyle” crimes and/or behaviors (e.g., the “windshield washers” who would demand money at intersections). More modern crime data analysis is about identifying the potential perpetrators from arrest records and details of MO. (I talked with the person who does this for my town recently.) Because police now have databases, they can share access and can query to ID potential suspects and can connect MO’s over space. So if there’s a rash of break-ins, they figure out fairly quickly who it might be. And if there’s activity over here that looks like activity other there, they can identify that as well. This has had a clear effect on crime because criminals aren’t generally capable of changing the way they do things. </p>
<p>The Atlantic piece is a fascinating read. </p>
<p>There’s a lot of insight in the observation: “The problem is testosterone…stop and frisks become ceremonies of dominance.”</p>
<p>Really poignant interview with the teenagers in Newark. They acknowledge that the stops may do some good in their neighborhood, but they resent having police jump out of their cars shouting at them as though a crime were in progress:</p>
<p>//In Shabazz’s Dream Lounge, I asked the three teenagers about how they thought stop-and-frisk might be improved.</p>
<p>Kiairus, the musical-theater writer, said, “People skills.”</p>
<p>“Don’t just jump out of their car,” Joshua advised. “Say ‘Excuse me.’ Ask me. A little more polite.” //</p>
<p>I wonder how many of us would like to be police officers. Called in to investigate a theft, by yourself, at midnight. Who would want to have a midnight talk by yourself with two suspects, whether you are armed or not? I don’t think these officers should be doing this alone.</p>
<p>The cruisers camera was not activated because they only activate when the vehicle emergency lights are activated. The body cameras were very new, with the police officers still getting trained on how to use them. Only three cameras for 31 police officers. The body cam doesn’t really matter much in this case, as they have three videos from different angles of the incident.</p>
<p>"Martin faced a series of criminal charges over the past 15 months according to KMOV, including assault, armed robbery, unlawful use of a weapon, armed criminal action and stealing. The station showed Martin’s tearful mother Toni Martin saying her son was “trying to get his life back together.”</p>
<p>County Police Chief Jon Belmar said the shooting was tragic, but stressed the teen pointed a gun “straight out” at the officer, who fired in self-defense.</p>
<p>Belmar said the officer, a 34-year-old, six-year Berkeley police veteran, was responding to a report of a theft when he pulled into the parking lot of a Mobil gas station in Berkeley shortly before 11:15 p.m.</p>
<p>He left his cruiser and talked to two men in the lot. Eventually, as the officer stood by the driver’s side tire of his cruiser, one of the men backed away from the cruiser’s passenger side headlight, then stepped forward again pointing a gun at the officer, Belmar said.</p>
<p>The officer, whom police did not name, lost balance and fell as he moved back in reaction, but managed to fire what investigators believe were three shots, hitting the gunman at least once, Belmar said"</p>
<p>Based on what I have seen, thus past shooting seems fully justified… but it does serve to highlight the mistrust that police policies and behaviors have engendered among certain demographics, that even obviously correct decisions are met with reflexive scorn and skepticism.</p>
<p>Well, there’s nothing new about that, either. Tupac Shakur and Ice Tea rose to fame rapping about killing cops 20 years ago and these 18-year olds have grown up knowing nothing else so that they distrust cops is hardly surprising. It’s all they know. And, who exactly are their role models? Interestingly, but for the video this would be another one of these cases. And, some are still going to insist that it is because the gun is fuzzy or the video is a fake or the officer didn’t put on his body cam or say please. Or something.</p>
<p>I find it telling that you place the blame on rappers and not on police practices that punish people of color for not being white.</p>
<p>busdriver- police have a difficult job but showing respect to citizens should not be the difficult part.</p>
<p>First, I’m not placing blame on anyone one thing. It’s a complex issue. But, my issue is with the false narrative that preceded the August outrage. That was false and it very nearly happened again in this case, but for the video which failed to stop protesters from blocking a freeway, throwing rocks at cops, injuring two officers, and demolishing a beauty shop. The Atlantic article is a good explanation about the police practices and to say that people are being punished for not being white is really missing the point. The police practices are targeting criminal activity not skin color and respect is not a one way street. But, being offended is not justification for resisting arrest, either. And, offender-profiling may be a better description of what’s occurring than racial profiling. Although, I get that some people are never going to get that. So yeah. I agree with Busdriver in that there should be no cops alone anywhere ever. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/parents-of-antonio-martin-say-his-fatal-shooting-doesn-t/article_fdcc9659-905c-5472-b5dd-66f5d36c6fba.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter”>http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/parents-of-antonio-martin-say-his-fatal-shooting-doesn-t/article_fdcc9659-905c-5472-b5dd-66f5d36c6fba.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter</a></p>
<p>Coming in a little late, but a few pages ago zoosermom said that she had been at a demonstration where people chanted “Kill the cops” or something similar. She further said that there was video of this event with these disturbing chants. Zoos, could you post this video? </p>
<p>“Coming in a little late, but a few pages ago zoosermom said that she had been at a demonstration where people chanted “Kill the cops” or something similar. She further said that there was video of this event with these disturbing chants. Zoos, could you post this video?”</p>
<p>emilybee posted a link in it in post #1556. It was all over several different news stations.</p>
<p>“busdriver- police have a difficult job but showing respect to citizens should not be the difficult part.”</p>
<p>I agree, tom. I definitely think it would be to the benefit of everyone if police officers always showed people respect. I realize sometimes it could wear them down, dealing with people who are robbing others, destroying property, beating their wives and children, drug dealers, etc. But showing respect for everyone is a basic thing.</p>
<p>However, I don’t think allowing someone to pull a gun on you and kill you is showing respect. If cops are attacked, they must protect themselves.</p>
<p>Thanks, busdriver. Hadn’t seen that before; it’s some loony fringe group that, thankfully, was not part of the organized protest that day, and represents the horrible whackos. Ugh.</p>
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<p>Actually, there are plenty of folks, especially African-Americans who came of age well before those two rappers became famous who have long harbored distrust of law enforcement. Plenty of baby boomer aged acquaintances and colleagues who came of age during the '50s and '60s, especially racial minorities and those from working/lower-middle class backgrounds harbor deep distrust of LEOs based on what they/their families experienced or witnessed in their own neighborhoods growing up. Considering the Civil Rights movement and how local/regional LEOs reacted like Bull Connor, I can’t say I blame them for their deep distrust. </p>
<p>And even some solidly middle-class White kids were affected depending on the prevailing attitudes of LEOs within a given jurisdiction. </p>
<p>One history teacher I had who came of age as a White teen in the 1950s recalled him and others being regularly roughed up and beaten up by the LEOs in his middle-class suburban town solely for the crime of being teenagers walking from school or just walking around town on weekends. And back then and to some extent even now among some, the first inclination of most back then was blame the victims rather than wonder why this was occurring even with honor students who never had any known behavioral issues or arrest record.</p>
<p>It was apparent the experience affected him even 4+ decades after it occurred and despite the fact he went on to higher education, teaching at my public magnet, and from all outward appearances seemed like a well-dressed respectable solidly middle-class professional who’d be the last person LEOs would profile. </p>
<p>busdriver I think my opinion on police being given the benefit in cases of force are fairly clear. They do need to understand though that even though they deal with many criminals they can not have the default position that every minority is a criminal.</p>
<p>What would happen to you if you treated every passenger boarding your plane as if they were a hijacker?</p>
<p>I agree, tom, of course they can’t have the default position that every minority is a criminal. However, if a minority appears to be involved in a crime, they cannot ignore it, because they don’t want to be accused of harassing a minority. As I said, I think everyone should be treated with respect.</p>
<p>I rarely deal with passengers, but obviously most anyone could be a hijacker. However, I have little suspicious of infants, toddlers, small children, elderly women and the like. Young middle eastern men are the ones who have generally been hijackers, and nowadays everyone is aware of that. We have been fortunate to have not been successfully hit for a long time. </p>
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That there are racists out there goes without saying but that’s not what’s being contended.</p>
<p>Proving there’s a racial component to these deaths would include showing a rate of blacks killed by the police outside that of any other ethnic minority. And that’s after adjusting for this sort of thing:
The idea that police can treat every single stop they make as beginning with a blank slate is unrealistic. </p>
<p>Ferguson fatigue may begin to set in, but that particular police department seems bent on creating some new kerfuffle at every opportunity.</p>
<p>It’s certainly a not a good thing when the Police Information Officer is caught in a lie. Personally, to me his original comment was trivial and did not necessarily require severe rebuke. But any sap who then lies to his employer when questioned about the behavior can expect to be rebuked and penalized.</p>
<p><a href=“Ferguson officer placed on unpaid leave after calling Michael Brown memorial 'a pile of trash'”>Ferguson officer placed on unpaid leave after calling Michael Brown memorial 'a pile of trash';