Financial Aid "Strategy..." will it work?

Paying for College
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<p>I have a 4.5 weighted GPA and above-average extra-curriculars. Here is my SAT breakdown:
800 Math
660 CR
670 Writing</p>

<p>That’s 1460/1600 and 2130/2400. I plan to retake it in October and focus on Reading and Writing (my goal is 700 in both).
I am looking to go to an engineering college in the NE, like Carnegie Mellon or Cornell. I think I am one of those students that has a long shot at a top-10 or Ivy school, but I think I might get into one if I apply to plenty. Carnegie Mellon and Cornell both have financial aid “matching” policies (they will “match” financial aid from similar or better colleges).</p>

<p>The biggest question is financial aid. I am trying to AVOID LOANS at all costs!!! There are some schools that have eliminated loans from financial aid packages (see the list at [Student</a> financial aid in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“Student financial aid in the United States - Wikipedia”>Student financial aid in the United States - Wikipedia)), and I plan on applying to many of them.</p>

<p>There are also schools that meet the full financial need of admitted students - other than the EFC. See a list at: [Colleges</a> That Claim to Meet Full Financial Need - US News and World Report](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2012/02/16/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need]Colleges”>http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/paying-for-college/articles/2012/02/16/colleges-that-claim-to-meet-full-financial-need) I will apply to colleges that meet full need without loans.</p>

<p>If I apply to a lot of those schools (Harvard etc), maybe get into one or two with a financial aid package, do you think I would be able to negotiate financial aid with better engineering schools like Carnegie Mellon U? I know CMU is stingy with financial aid and a lot of it is loans… but I really want to go there. They do match however, and so does Cornell, another school I would love to go to.</p>

<p>I plan to apply to one safety as well… Is that a bad strategy overall? Is it worth the cost of applying and filling out applications? Do I need more safeties?</p>

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<p>The schools that “Meet Need” use the CSS Profile to determine that need. You do not determine your need, and it can be very different from what you might expect. You need to apply to schools you can afford without any financial aid at all beyond the Stafford loans pretty much every citizen is eligible to take out. While it is good to want to avoid loans, taking out a manageable amount is not a bad thing, and can help you establish credit and have a sense of your own piece of financial interest in your education.</p>

<p>I would advise you to apply to just as many “safeties” as you do financial “reaches”. That way, if you are not offered the aid you hope to get, you will still have plenty of choices of affordable schools to attend.</p>

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<p>what is your unweighted gpa?</p>

<p>make sure that you use a bottoms up approach where you have some true safeties that are financially feasible for your family.</p>

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</p>

<p>you are not the first person to think like this</p>

<p>start here…</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1314179-angry-over-college-admissions-process.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parents-forum/1314179-angry-over-college-admissions-process.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I plan to apply to one safety as well… Is that a bad strategy overall? Is it worth the cost of applying and filling out applications? Do I need more safeties?</p>

<p>Since your CR and W scores are weak for the elites AND you need a lot of aid, you need at least 2-3 financial safeties. It’s not enough to identify schools that will accept you. YOU NEED to find schools that will give you LOTS of money. Most safeties do NOT give much need based aid. You need safeties that will give you HUGE merit money. HUGE. </p>

<p>For schools that “meet need” …that doesn’t mean “do do” if your family won’t qualify for the need it wants. First find out how much aid you might qualify for at these full need schools. Have your parents help with info for the NPCs. If they’re self-employed, the numbers won’t likely be accurate and you may have to pay more than indicated. If you have a non-custodial parent, that will also be an issue.</p>

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<p>CMU will not match Harvard’s aid. </p>

<p>As an almni interviewer who just reviewed today which of those I interviewed got in, I’d say without an amazing, national level EC and being val at a top school, the Harvard app isn’t worth your time. If you want CMU apply to it’s peer schools and safeties, putting your effort into those apps.</p>

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<p>Financial Aid is a complicated beast and a lot of time you don’t know until you apply. Schools especially the competitive ones have their ways of calculating, so going just by the list of USWR or Wikipedia is a start but it does not necessary give you a complete picture of what you will get at the end. Bottom line it is not the loan policy, it is the COA (cost of attendance). A lot of it will depend on your parents financial situation and how much they are willing to help. Your parents income and asset will be the major determinant of how much need-based aid you will get.</p>

<p>So first thing to do is to sit down with your parents and do the EFC calculation using any calculator available on the internet. You need their information like income and asset, then from the given EFC, how do your parents feel about paying the calculated EFC each year. If they don’t mind then you are in good shape. If not, then that is something you need to keep in mind going forward, and the difference between what they are willing to pay and EFC is an important number because that will correlate with how much loan you are going to need.</p>

<p>Then there is merit aid, where your academic achievement will come into play. The way it works here is that you need to apply to schools that basically put your GPA and test scores in the top end of the pool of admitted students. The most competitive schools like the ones you mentioned usually do not give out a lot or many times any merit aid, they give out just the need-based aid. If your parents are not willing to pay the EFC, this is one strategy where you can pick up the difference and avoid loan. The obvious conclusion of this is that, if the gap between the amount your parents willing to pay and EFC is very large, the most competitive schools will likely be out of reach financially for you.</p>

<p>I say go get the information from your parents, calculate the EFC, and with your academic record, people here will have better idea, and able to tell you what kind of schools you should apply to better your chance of getting the financial aid that you want.</p>

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<p>Go to finaid.org and learn the ropes.
Your CR score will be an issue among the competition. You also need the right mix of extracurrics and good essays. If you intend STEM, be in math and science activities in hs and get some outside experience. Don’t settle for hs fun activities; commit to something with substance.</p>

<p>If you are a borderline candidate, applying to many or all of the Ivies will not increase your chances. How could it? They review holistically, but with 25-35k applications, can cherry pick. </p>

<p>Also, some non-Ivy “meet full need” schools are actually “need aware” in their admissions process. No free lunch in the FA world. And, nearly all schools expect you to take Stafford loans, even the MFN schools. As noted, you or your parents provide financial detail and the schools run that through their own process to determine your “need.” The Fafsa EFC is only for fed loan purposes. Each college should have a Net Price Calculator online. Not guaranteed to be an accurate preview of a later finaid offer, but many parents says it comes close, at many schools.</p>

<p>And, never trust Wiki. Check each college’s policies directly. Some modified, after 2008. Learn to distinuish the hype.</p>

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<p>Here is what I think is the best strategy. Find a couple of schools that you know will take you, and that you know you can afford, that have the programs you want. These are your “Safety” schools. My kids all had a couple of them, and one went to his as it turned out to be the best choice. Once you have those on your list, you are set. Go to town, and apply where you want to apply and use whatever strategy you want.</p>

<p>Run you family numbers through the FAFSA calculators and get some idea what your EFC is. Bear in mind that the more generous schools use PROFILE so if there is a non custodial parent, or a lot of home equity, those numbers could be way off.</p>

<p>As for CMU, they don’t guarantee to match offers. They are open to reconsidering their packages in light of other ones. I’ve known many kids whose new offers were no more that a few thousand more in loan money even after showing a comparable school package that was far more generous. It all depends on how much a school wants you. </p>

<p>A lot of good ideas on this board. Read through them and select what best suits your situation.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the replies everyone!!!</p>

<p>I have ran through a bunch of financial aid estimators on college websites. Schools like Case, RPI and RIT were not looking too good. Rochester was all right; they have a lot of merit scholarships. A few are even full-ride. Rochester is not good for engineering though.</p>

<p>The financial aid estimators for Harvard, Princeton, Cornell etc looked really great. But there’s such a small chance of getting in… I don’t even know if it’s worth it.</p>

<p>I think my safeties should be SUNY schools. I need to improve my SAT reading score by 10+ points to qualify for UB’s Presidential Scholarship ([UB</a> Undergraduate Admissions: Costs, Scholarships and Aid - Scholarships - Merit Scholarships](<a href=“http://admissions.buffalo.edu/costs/meritscholarships.php]UB”>http://admissions.buffalo.edu/costs/meritscholarships.php)). My PSAT was bad so National Merit is out of the question. So other than UB, what engineering safety schools should I apply to?</p>

<p>Again, thanks for the replies!</p>

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<p>By the way, Carnegie Mellon has a list of “peer institutions” that it matches (?) aid for. Here they are:</p>

<p>California Institute of Technology (too far away, I’m looking for NE)
Cornell University (Will Apply… might have a chance)
Duke University (too far away… and they’ll give me loans)
Emory University (I have family in Atlanta… and they have a no-loan policy… ??? Not good for engineering however)
Georgia Institute of Technology (OOS… nope)
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Will Apply… probably will not get in)
Northwestern University (They’ll give me too many loans… I checked out their NPC)
Princeton University (Will apply… probably will not get in)
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (Bad NPC, and my school didn’t nominate me for the Rensselaer Medal… ugh!)
Rice University (too far)
Stanford University (too far)
University of Pennsylvania (No loans, but it’s a long shot if I apply)
Washington University in St. Louis (too far)</p>

<p>Also, Cornell matches aid for Ivy League (some that are not on the above list: Columbia, Harvard, Yale, Brown…), Stanford, MIT and Duke.</p>

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<p>My EFC is 6000</p>

<p>Here is the list of no-loan colleges again. I ran through their NPC’s and I think it’s accurate.
<a href=“http://projectonstudentdebt.org/pc_institution.php[/url]”>http://projectonstudentdebt.org/pc_institution.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Don’t count on a 100% match from CMU with offers from any school. Nice to dream, but it doesn’t always work that way; I know of kids who did submit other offers and did not get anywhere close to a full match, and, yes, they were schools from that list. The same with Cornell. It is not a guarantee.</p>

<p>Just cover your base with safeties and the rest is pure fun.</p>

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<p>You really can’t run their NPCs and declare them “accurate.” Not yet. That comes after you see if the predictor tools did match the subsequent offers. The actual questions on the live forms aremore complex and detailed than an estimator. Not to mention that the figures on your link ar for 2009-10, costs have gone up, and some colleges have flip-flopped on aspects of their aid policies because of the impact of the 2008 downturn.</p>

<p>I like your courage to explore, but you’d be better off getting som engineering experience, competitions, broad activities incl comm svc- and taking a hard look at the actual questions on the CA by which adcoms will get to know you. Or not. Right now you are speculating that you can beat t the $. Go read finaid.org. And follow cpt’s advice about safeties. No school can modify it’s offer if they didn’t accept you.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the help guys! I’m clearly a beginner at this “game…” you guys are the experts.</p>

<p>I’ve looked up some of the no-loan promises on college websites, and the ones I’m looking at are accurate. </p>

<p>Here is a quick list of Extra-curriculars:
Math Club
International Club
Mock Trial
School Newspaper (Editor for 3 years)
120+ hours of community service (local Sunday School, food pantry, etc). Some leadership there.
Varsity Tennis, Captain next year
(Hopefully work over the summer)</p>

<p>Is that average or above-average? It’s pretty good for my school I think. Not good at all for competitive colleges.</p>

<p>I have an account on the Common App website and have already started filling it out. I’ll start writing essays over the summer if I need to make them good.</p>

<p>“Just cover your base with safeties and the rest is pure fun.” So should I apply to some safeties and then a bunch of reaches? (Wow, this really is a crapshoot!)</p>

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<p>

Some people do just that. Remember a safety should be a school you can definitely get into, are WILLING to attend and can AFFORD. If it’s all of those then why not go for reaches. You don’t really need anything else.</p>

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<p>“Is that average or above-average? It’s pretty good for my school I think. Not good at all for competitive colleges.”</p>

<p>Below average for top schools. Visit the page at CC for the top schools and look at the threads where the admitted and denied students post their stats to get an idea what type students profile these schools accept. You can also try some of the LACs that have strong engineering depts. Or a LAC that has a 3+2 program with an engineering school. Do not get stuck on the prestige of the school. Geographical diversity is also your friend. Expand beyond NE. If you want a lot of aid and you do not have premium stats you can not be so choosy.</p>

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<p>The safeties are not part of the crapshoot. THey are the schools that are given.</p>

<p>You see, many years ago, when I was a college student, most kids just applied to their “safety” school. That was the school they knew was the logical , affordable progression after college. Most people still do this, by the way. it’s just that it’s become the “cool thing” to do, to apply to sleep away colleges. That was, in my day something reserved for those who had well to do families, and families who knew the ropes of those sorts of schools, or for kids willing to give it a go. Some kids would apply to their state flagships, fingers crossed they would get in there, and that parents could scrape up the money, while their safety school was really where they knew they would likely go. Those with great stats, might throw in a reach school that they’d heard about, as a lottery ticket, again in hopes that they would win the drawing and that the money would materialize.</p>

<p>Things haven’t really changed that much these days, except a cored of kids and families are forgetting about the good old safety school and thinking that the matches and reaches are an entitlement of sorts. After all, the kids’ stats fall right into those parameters, right? And Everybody is going away to school and getting loads of money. </p>

<p>Nope. With the common application and more readily available information, students are able to broaden their horizons quite a bit and apply to more schools and increase chances of getting the admissions for a school that is not the good old safety, but it still is the most important school on anyone’s list, because it really is all a crap shoot and yes, you can end up not getting accepted to the schools where the element of chance plays a larger role in the process,and unless your parents can pay for college, you might get accepted but not be able to afford to go. Just take a look at these boards and see all of the sad posts about not getting accepted and not being able to pay when accepted. </p>

<p>But even sadder, is when no other alternatives are there, and the expectations were all on these schools that were, yes, crapshoots. </p>

<p>So in applying for reaches, you might want to vary the types of schools you have in that basket. Kids tend to apply to schools in the same clusters. Very predictable. And a lot of times you get some lop sided results with some kids accepted to a whole lot of them and some to hardly any. The same with getting money.</p>

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<p>There is a lot of information in your posts, I’m having trouble sifting through it. What are your safeties? Would you accept some small amount of loans? With an EFC of $6000 you’re asking for a lot of money.</p>

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<p>OP, your ECs are a good start, but you will need to describe more about your role and successes in these. Math and/or Mock competitions and level, Sunday school and comm svc should neatly worded to show responsibilities, commitment over time, and any leadership- ie, not just membership and expected participation. Leadership is not just about titles- it can be about how you see needs and take action. For engineering, many of the competition will have robotics, outside experience, etc. All this is a matter of a cautious evaluation now, rounding out, as needed, and good describing. And, remember: essays should use “show not tell” and amount to something that makes adcoms like you, not just another hs essay, position paper or brag sheet.</p>

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<p>Cornell will give you loans. Up to $7500/year depending on your parents’ income <a href=“http://www.finaid.cornell.edu/cost-attend/financial-aid-initiatives[/url]”>http://www.finaid.cornell.edu/cost-attend/financial-aid-initiatives&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;