Financial Dilemma

Parents Forum
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<p>The jist of the Atlantic article is that the colleges use their endowments to give discounts/incentives, instead of giving $10K to one needy student, they chose to give $2.5K to four other students, who would otherwise be able to pay in full. They call it “merit aid” adds to the cache, and may tip the balance for that “Full Pay” student to pick that college for the next four years. The series of articles in the Nov. 2005 The Atlantic issue are worth reading, and as I said, any local library should have it. </p>

<p>NMF- how many of these students are also from affluent circumstances? Does anyone know how the NMF student is picked? I know it has to do with the PSAT scores, but other than that, I believe church groups are some how involved in the decision. How is NMF funded? How many of the NMF students have had prior PSAT/SAT prep courses, one-on-one tutors and a PTA-subsidized public or private schools? Things middle class kids can’t afford. Things only a handful of URM are considered given subsidies for and receive.</p>

<p>EFC- has this formula changed considerably over the years, do you know? It seems to be the culprit here, because even if you are the most frugal family, you are expected to pay a significant portion of your yearly salary for an education. Which more often than not sends you into the arms of the bankers, tapping into your home equity. How much have the banking industry lobbied for the EFC formula now in use? </p>

<p>If the college is really good, why do they have to give incentives? If the price tag is too high, then they should lower it for everyone. They could do that by eliminating the work of the “enrollment managers,” frenzy of mailings, rankings and dog-and-pony shows. </p>

<p>Oh I know, the glossies are fun to receive, the rankings fun to debate, and the dog-and-pony shows entertaining to some extant, but for what price all of this amusement? I would rather save the thousands on tuition. But how unapppealing to frenzied shoppers.</p>

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<p>But even Regents merit money, in my D’s case, was means-adjusted…$X thousands per year, unless you had no need–then $Y (much smaller amount–like $1,000 or less per year). Certainly not enough in her case to make it worth changing her mind about which college to go to.</p>

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<p>I am aware of the article (which sounds like good business practice to me), but gets back to my earlier question: what’s wrong with a private school giving out private money to attract the kids that they want? If they want higher test score kids, they need to attract them – and some school use tuition discounts. </p>

<p>efc formula was established by Congress in ~1988, but not sure if its inflation-indexed.</p>

<p>National Merit Semi Finalist is based solely on the PSAT score (taken Jr year) by state. The cutoff for Calif is ~217 – NE states are a few points higher, with midwest states being a few points lower. To move to Finalist stage, the high scoring psat student needs a validating SAT score (somewhere in the same ballpark as the psat), and decent gpa,. along with a good conduct rec from the HS. </p>

<p>Any self-discipline kid can easily self-prep for any college test with books checked out of the library using the xiggi method as posted here on cc – no expensive classes necessary.</p>

<p>one can easily eliminate most glossy brochure mail by checking the box on the psat app or the SAT app – do NOT wish to participate in CB’s college search.</p>

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<p>Glad to know you are aware of the article. </p>

<p>“The kids they want”- define please.</p>

<p>The article’s author (and with whom I agree) definition would be students who can afford to pay, not necessarily higher scorers.</p>

<p>Maybe someone else has more info on EFC. </p>

<p>Why would score cut-off points be different for different areas of the country?
I read that a committe of local community learders actually makes the final decision, it is not automatically allocated by scores. Who are the committee members, say for CA? Who funds the scholarships the NMF receive?</p>

<p>Yes, I suppose you can Boot-strap this argument to death! </p>

<p>DO HYPS give out merit aid? Why not?</p>

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<p>ellemenope, keep in mind that the UC campuses are competing with each other. Almost every California kid will apply to multiple campuses, and the kids who are strongest academically will certainly be admitted to multiple campuses. My d. was admitted to Cal, Santa Cruz, & Santa Barbara. On April 1st, UCSC was probably her last choice among the 3. UCSC & UCSB had roughly comparable financial aid offer. Then UCSC notified us that my d. was also getting a $2000 Deans scholarship, and that this money would replace some of the loans in her package. All of the sudden, UCSC is dirt cheap by comparison to every other option we have. In our case, my daughter also had a preferred option with a private LAC… but if she had not had that option, that measly little $2K scholarship might have been enough to tip the balance. </p>

<p>There is an informal, in-state “ranking” that really is independent of whatever US News says. The stats that are important are the ones that are disseminated to guidance counselors all over the state. If Santa Cruz can lure a top students away from Davis or Santa Barbara with a few thousand dollars, tha helps boost UCSC’s own numbers, and raises it profile. Students at in-state public high schools are tremendously influenced by students at their own schools, because of course kids keep in touch – so smart kids are very likely to choose the campus where their friends or older siblings went.</p>

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<p>

Because it is allocated by state – each state has a certain number of finalists, and it is generally the top 1% or 2% of scorers in each state (I don’t remember which)

You read wrong. You might be confusing the scholarships with the finalist standing; there are 3 types of scholarships: one is funded and selections made by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation (NMSC); one is funded & selections made by private corporations, generally for children of employees; and one is funded & selections made by individual colleges for students who have decided to enroll there. NMSC is a private, not-for-profit corporation that exists solely to administer the scholarship program.</p>

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<p>All you ever want to know about efc is well documented in the CB link – the numbers start on page 49.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/fa/Economics-Primer-2004.pdf[/url]”>College Board - SAT, AP, College Search and Admission Tools;

<p>“the kids they want” – each college defines differently. For USC it is high test score kids (with less emphasis on gpa). Other schools look at a combination of high test scores and gpa. Others want musical (Juliiard) or other special talents, which includes athletes. Again, so what? These are private colleges spending private funds to fulfill their mission. As mini has stated many times, admissions teams are professionals and do the job that their school wants them to.</p>

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<p>Bluebayou - thanks for posting the link to that brochure (book really). Looks like absolutely essential reading.</p>

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<p>About USC, my son estimates that roughly half of the kids from his private HS that are matriculating there this fall are all NMFs who are getting at least 1/2 tuition scholarships (which USC offers to all accepted NMFs). Some have turned down much more prestiguous offers to save their folks substantial $$. Even at his HS, there are many kids on full-ride or other need-based scholarships because they can’t afford the tuition (which is currently $13,500/year).
I know that many of the high stat kids in HI apply & attend there because USC is known for good merit aid & good “Trojan family” which is said to help with internships and later jobs. </p>

<p>I’m sure it does make for a rich blend between the full-fare wealthier students paying $47,000+, the partly subsidized kids paying $30,000-$40,000, and the students with more aid due to much more need. It is said to be a wonderful, vibrant campus & my son is happy to be matriculating there in the fall. It should be a fascinating experience!</p>

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<p>Oh come on, I am supposed to read a “book” in order to have a discussion with you, but you won’t read 6 pages of a magazine? ridiculous.</p>

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<p>USC may be buying students, but that is not the whole picture. See this: <a href=“http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/11925.html[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/uscnews/stories/11925.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I suspect some of the kids referred to in the article have been bought away from the ivies or Stanford. As a “Trojan Parent,” paying nearly full freight (except for an unexpected and unapplied for small merit award) I am absolutely delighted to have the best of the best coming to USC. It can do nothing but make my son’s educational experience better. So good for USC.</p>

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<p>calmom- Those are pretty certain words, “you read wrong,” how is it that you can be so sure? I don’t think it is enough to say, it’s a non-profit and leave it at that. Non-profits are run by actual people, and those people with their own biases, and someone needs to give them money so that they have something to give away. Who are they? Are you affiliated with NMSC? I think you may want to go back and reread their website, because your explanation of the types of awards is also not accurate. </p>

<p>NMF by state- so states with lower scoring kids get the same amount of money as higher scoring states?</p>

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<p>raising – I definitely will track down the article, but the library was closed yesterday.</p>

<p>calmom is correct: nearly everyone who makes NMSF (test score only) goes on to finalist category. The only students that do not make finalist either: a) do not have a validating SAT score, i.e., they got lucky on the psat; b) do not have a good gpa, i.e., smart kids who don’t apply themselves in the classroom; c) do not recieve a school rec since they may have some citizenship violations; d) fail to complete a short essay – doesn’t have to be pithy, just turned in.</p>

<p>Yes, NMSF and, therefore, Finalists are by state. But, please note that there is little actual money offerd by the National Merit Corp. The big money is provided in the form of tuition discounts by the schools that want these kids; HiMom provides one example at USC, but there are many others, which can be googled.</p>

<p>TSDad: I mentioned 'SC’s generosity of also pursuing low income kids in post #48, which I believe, refutes the Atlantic Monthly article’s pov. However, based on what I’ve seen in our community (several large feeder high schools to 'SC), the college is test score-happy. For example, a Commended Scholar, 4.0, all honors/AP recieves zero merit money, whereas at the same high school, a NMF, 3.7 does receive merit money. In essence, one extra correct bubble completed on the psat is more highly valued than four year of classes. But, hey, its their money!</p>

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<p>Mini: I have never heard this to be true; it’s really hard to respond to. I have never seen any reference to this on the USC Forum nor has my son mentioned it. I don’t think that data tells the whole story. Kids are kids. Some behave like *holes and some don’t; having money is not always the common denominator in determining on which side of that scale any particular student falls.</p>

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<p>The UC(California) system analyzed the selection of students for the NM awards and found what appears to be potential discrimination:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/senate/reports/nmsp.efm.background.pdf[/url]”>http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/senate/reports/nmsp.efm.background.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I am afraid my misgivings about the church related issue was indeed more truth than not- see the list of colleges that give donations for the program in their annual report starting on page 20, on their website, left-hand column, </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nationalmerit.org/[/url]”>http://www.nationalmerit.org/&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>contributing to the NMF awards, most of them religious-based, with the others being state schools, or the third category, the WUSTL/USC/Tufts/UoChicago group. </p>

<p>USC, I will mention since it is so popular here, although this post started with a question regarding U of Chicago, does not give any awards to the “National Achievement Scholarship Program, for Black American high school students” (that is NMSC choice of words, not mine. They are located in Evanston, Illinois, no less, Lincoln’s home state).</p>

<p>The NMSC does not list the members of the committees that make the Semifinalist and Finalists decisions, page 43. But they do list the committee members for the “Black American” awards. Go Figure.</p>

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<p>To see the ditty-gritty of demographics that attend USC, or any school, go to the fabulous data sets on “The Education Trust” website, </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/[/url]”>http://www.■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/&lt;/a&gt; </p>

<p>just select any school, or any number of schools, and bingo, info at your fingertips. USC has 6.7% African American students, 12.9% Latino American students and 0.8% Native American students. It says the school has 15,000 students. WUSTL and U of Chicago, for comparisons sake, have 6,000 and 4,000 each, with 9%AA & 4%LA, 4%AA & 9%LA, respectively with each under 1%NA. </p>

<p>Given that USC is roughly over half as big as WUSTL, you would expect it to have numbers more in the range of: 20%AA and 10% LA, but of course local population demographics would not support that mix, but it seems to me the 24% is still low for a school of that size. There is a drop down menu to change criteria, so if you choose “finance,” you will see that USC’s
need-based aid isn’t that high, higher than WUSTL, but half of what U of Chicago provides. </p>

<p>I have NOTHING against USC, have no connection to it whatsoever, as I say, I am a WUSTL graduate, and hate to see things like the NMF running the system, when it is so biased to begin with, gets some kids hopes up, and their parents, just like the promises of financial aid by the glossy brochures, dog-and-pony shows, etc…</p>

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<p>Raising 2:</p>

<p>You are mistaken about USC’s participation in the National Achievement process. USC’s website cites scholarships for both the National Achievement award winners and National Hispanic Scholars. <a href=“http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/fa/sg/entering_undergrad_meritbased/[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/fa/sg/entering_undergrad_meritbased/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>According to <a href=“http://www.usc.edu/private/factbook/2006/all_byethnicity_06.pdf[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/private/factbook/2006/all_byethnicity_06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;,
less than 50% of USC undergrads are white. You left out the Asian-American count, which is 21.1% as well as internationals, which are 8.6% one of the highest percentages on non-American students at a major university in the country. The large percentage of Asian-Americans reflects the population of California, where USC draws over 50% of their undergrad student body from, as well as a feeling of welcomeness. The pool of African-Americans to draw from is much smaller and they must compete with Stanford and the UCs for them.</p>

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<p>Why would they have a higher percentage just because they’re bigger? What are LAs?</p>

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<p>AA=african american
LA=latino american</p>

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<p>NASP- National Achievment Scholastic Program for African American students
NMF- National Merit Finalists</p>

<p>The NASP, it turns out on reading the Annual Report again, is lumped in with the NMF Merit program. USC is shown as sponsoring 159 total for both programs, see table on page 25. The NASP is shown as being sponsored by corporations only, no college is listed in the list of sponsors, so USC would be no exception. (see page 34, Annual Report)</p>

<p>There are a total 190 participants in the NMF attending USC (page 30, 05data) and 6 NASP participants attending USC(page 38). Therefore, corporations are sponsoring 6 African American students in some way to attend USC out of 15,000 students in attendance. This is 2005 data from the NMSC website. </p>

<p>I did not include Asian Americans because they are not considered URM under-represented minorities. LA are Latino/Latina Americans.</p>

<p>Didn’t I acknowledge the demographics of the surrounding communities in my last post? I live in CA, so I know what the situation is.</p>

<p>USC is lucky it is in a community with motivated students, and students who want to stay in the area. I think they are uniquely situated, I can only think of Rice in Texas as the another private school with similar surrounding demographics. Rice has 2,800 students, with 7%AA and 11%LA, but their mean SAT scores are 1400, USC’s are 1330, so it isn’t quite the same, Rice admits 24% of it’s applicants, USC admits 30%. I’d compare the Claremont group but that would be too time consumming.</p>

<p>With the National Merit program, it seems there needs to be much more transparancy and a LOT more money shovelled into the pot for it to be a good system.</p>