<p>This is a very interesting topic. I just got home from a 1-1/2 hour trip (two-way, car-pooling involved) relating to my youngest’s music. There will be more such trips this week, and they’re not superfluous…he’s a real player. He’s also an academic genius, and was reading ancient Greek by flashlight on the way home. That’s the way he’s always been. People often mis-characterize him as a " child prodigy." I’ve met a few of those, and he’s not a person who suddenly, after 6 months of training, is performing at the level of the greatest who have ever lived. He’s not a Heifetz. But he’s awfully darned good, and we spend a lot of time dealing with his very obvious musical gift, which became evident before his fourth birthday. His interest in history has kept us on our toes. Why, for example, would an eight-year-old stop in the middle of a Mendelssohn rehearsal to ask about the secret agreements that led to WWI? I’m happy to have these little folks in my life, and I confess to a sense of loss when they are gone…where do they come from? I have no idea.</p>
<p>momsdream:</p>
<p>From what I’ve read, giftedness is not linked to achievement. It is more a mode of learning. Gifted children absorb information faster. Too often, they are confused with high achievers, students who do well by dint of methodical, slower, work. This is why the MIT teacher’s rec tries to identify how kids excel: by dint of hard work; because they are grade-conscious; because they have good memory; because they are brilliant. Obviously, they would prefer to admit the latter.
I have read of kids who have a rage to learn, who are always questioning. This applies also to artistic kids: they have a rage to perform music, to act, to paint. A corollary of giftedness is that kids who are not appropriately challenged can become underachievers: they slack off because things are too easy for them, they are bored. The can become quite disruptive.
Quite often, their intellectual abilities outstrip their social/emotional growth. Another issue is that their age peers are not their intellectual peers. Since the movie Spellbound was mentioned on a different thread, let me recall the boy from rural Missouri (?) who was bullied by his schoolmates because he was “different.” He was different because he loved to learn. More often, gifted kids are lonely because they don’t fit in intellectually with their agemates or socially with their intellectual peers who may be several years ahead. Not all kids who are gifted or unusual have social/emotional issues, of course. My kid is boringly normal.
As for dual exceptionalities, they come in many ways. Sometimes, the LD or physical limitation masks the intellectual giftedness, sometimes, it’s the other way around: the gifted child learns coping strategies that makes him/her appear ordinary. For example, one mother only discovered that her D was partially deaf when the child went to school. Somehow, the girl had mastered lip-reading so well her mother had never noticed it. In other cases, deficiencies in small motor developments may make teachers think a child is lagging; yet, the child can still be gifted. A kid who has trouble writing can show off his/her knowledge when equipped with a computer, for example.</p>
<p>Ah, the gifted topic again. </p>
<p>This is really a tough issue, because it is so politically laden. Julian Stanley did more to advance this topic than just about anyone else, and trained a coterie of folks that continue his work since his recent passing. You might want to go to a good ed school library and peruse some of the research.</p>
<p>What I found most fascinating about the reseach into gifted was the following:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>most researchers will refer to giftedness in a particular area, be it mathematical reasoning, verbal, spatial etc., frequently labelling the gifted as those about 3 SD from the mean of relevant standardized tests, although there is no universal definition.</p></li>
<li><p>the researchers found that these gifted were qualitatively different learners, not just quantitative. They not only learned faster, but differently. The best I could understand was that they had the ability to learn in a massively parallel fashion.</p></li>
<li><p>in defiance of conventional wisdom, these kids are better adjusted than average, better athletically, and more popular. (seems unfair?)</p></li>
<li><p>these kids do not generally to exceptionally well in school, for reasons many of us can probably guess - they tend to confuse teachers, who truly cannot comprehend, for example, that a 10 year old already understands high level math even though he cannot add well, or that the kid who does not spell well is an outstanding reader etc. Teachers tend to confuse the mechanics of a discipline with the cognitive component.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>To me, the good news was that my own D was not one of these kids, so a conventional educational environment was likely to serve her satisfactorily, which it did, with a good deal of pushing the school on my part and a bit of frustration on her part. For her, college is a whole different case, as she is truly delighting in the flexibility that exists in a good university. For instance, she took a graduate immunology seminar this summer (summer after her frosh year) and loved it. </p>
<p>If you have what I call an agressive learner, one who loves intellectual challenges, a lot of colleges can fill the bill. The keys are:</p>
<ul>
<li><p>the collegemust be flexible regarding pre-requisites and requirements. Most good colleges are flexible, but it would not hurt to explore a bit. Much of the flexibility will not be formal policy.</p></li>
<li><p>For some kids, a peer group of like minded kids is important. But for some, it does not matter. You need to observe how independent your kid is and make an assessment.</p></li>
</ul>
<p>Momsdream, there are many good books about ‘gifted’ children. One of the best is Ellen Winners’ “Gifted Children: Myths and Realities.” Howard Gardner, who I believe is married to Ellen Winner, has written a number of books about different types of talents. I don’t remember everything about the definition, but it’s easy enough to find something online. There is usually a basic requirement for performing at a particular level on standardized tests. But there is more to it than that, and that’s also why I tend to use quotation marks. Truly gifted kids (and I’m not saying that mine fall into this category) learn in a fundamentally different way, with a high level of internal drive and motivation. I started this thread more to get other people’s ideas about find the right fit for kids with specific needs, than to start a debate about the merits of labeling kids as gifted. By the way, I’ve known a lot of gifted kids, and very intelligent adults – I would say that they have all been intense, although this is just anecdotal evidence.</p>
<p>momsdream,</p>
<p>In my son’s school district, selected second graders are administered an exam called (if I remember correctly) the Raven’s Matrices. Students who score in the top 1% of all test-takers nationwide are designated “gifted.” Those who score in the top .1% are designated “highly gifted.”</p>
<p>Here is a link to a useful comparison between gifted and bright children:</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.memphis-schools.k12.tn.us/admin/curriculum/clue/comparison.html[/url]”>http://www.memphis-schools.k12.tn.us/admin/curriculum/clue/comparison.html</a></p>
<p>I think kids thrive best in a college setting where there is a critical mass of other kids like them. If they are one of the top 30 math (or physics, or music, or whatever) kids in their town, their needs can probably be met in an honors program at their local state u, as well as at any number of other fine colleges and universities. If they are one of the top 30 math kids in the country, that probably isn’t the case. Those kids all cluster at a very small handful of places. Even though their needs could probably be met in terms of research opportunities and faculty interaction at any college that is savvy enough to realize what they have, their need for true peers could not.</p>
<p>I read an interesting definition once of true genius. It was something like this… an ordinary genius is someone who thinks just like you and me, if only we thought a hundred times better. We can understand how his mind works, even if our own does not work as well. But a true genius thinks in a totally different way, and sees connections that the rest of us cannot begin to comprehend.</p>
<p>If you click on the link above, you’ll see what I mean – intense just doesn’t begin to describe these kids. They are exhausting. They are not passive, they feel things deeply, and seem to struggle with understanding their place in the world. I’m just getting a little tired of debating every issue under the sun during dinner or while driving to school.</p>
<p>Sjmom:</p>
<p>LOL! We used math as incentive for eating. S was finicky eater; we would pose a problem, he would start thinking about it and I would shovel food in and every once in a while I would say :“chew,” then "swallow.’ We also had stacks of math books which provided him with entertainment in the car. Now that he’s gone, I rather miss the math with dinner combo.</p>
<p>I agree with texas. The OP is asking about the right fit for her gifted child and if it’s worth the expense of a private school. I think the right learning and social environment is important for these kids and with the wealth of options is this country, college is the place to find that. </p>
<p>As for high maintenance, they are more sensitive to their environment because they are more aware. For example, they may get quite upset reading an article on global warming, because they are aware of the impact this has on the earth. It’s important for them to be able to have people around them that they can discuss these issues with.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>OMG EXACTLY.</p>
<p>This describes my littlest S to a tee. Incredible insatiable extrovert.</p>
<p>My youngest S is not exactly ahead of the game, skills-wise, but is so curious-- & so exhausting!! He’s the one who, I once mentioned on another thread, prefered me to read science encyclopedias for bedtime stories when he was two, three years old. He’s the toddler who, when we showed up at our swim club, frequently exchanged fond greetings with people whom I had never met-- they knew his name & he theirs, they we’re PALS for crying out loud-- from some intense hot tub conversation. We joked that he’d churn through our whole family in a day, exhausting by turns, Dad, Mom, Sis, & Brother, and we’d all be limp rags by evening but he’d still be game for more.</p>
<p>My favorite story about his giftedness and intensity was when he was about ten months old-- I had put him in the car, saying we were going to pick up his sister at tennis. However, I did not mention that we’d be stopping at the post office on the way to tennis. Well, when we got to the turn off for the tennis courts and I kept going straight he began to have a screaming fit in the back seat, “NOOOOO! NOOOO!” At first I thought he’d been stung by a bee or something. When I pulled over, checked for injuries, and got him calmed down a tiny bit he managed to sob–“NOOO! NOT THIS WAY!!!” and I realized he thought I’d forgotten to go get his sister because I hadn’t made the turn. Ten months!!</p>
<p>This so far has not translated into math facts 
but I think this sort of awareness can be a signal of giftedness.</p>
<p>I think there’s a point at which “amazingly smart” shades in to “gifted.” For me, having two “gifted” (according to the public school’s definition) children meant that I constantly fought to keep them from being excruciatingly bored in school. My son’s experience was the more challenging as a parent: he maintained a steady 70.1% (70% was passing) in middle school until he decided he wanted to go to MIT… and one way I knew he was smarter than he let on was that he maintained that extra .1%–clearly he <em>could</em> do the math ;-)</p>
<p>When my son took the SAT at age 11 (fall of 6th grade), he said “the math was interesting, there were some new ideas there, I had fun working them out.” (He got a 630.) That was when I got scared about keeping him from being bored. And it was a constant challenge, which is when he ended up in private school. (Even so, he left after his junior year, having maxxed out the science/math offerings, having won state level competitions, and having missed more than half of his classes “to do something more interesting” (always with teacher permission).)</p>
<p>At MIT, however, he’s not only challenged and never bored, he’s finding some things wildly interesting. This is a good thing, and not something his less-talented friends are finding in the honors program at the University of Washington.</p>
<p>So for us, the private school differential has been been essential. </p>
<p>(The biggest emotional issues have been the fact that many of his friends are way older than him; a good friend has been in Iraq, another has two children–and these are the kids who were in his math classes in middle school. Sometimes that creates its own set of problems.)</p>
<p>(My D was way more willing to “go along” with the program–she mostly just spent a lot more time reading way more interesting books than her classmates. Now that she’s at Reed, she’s enjoying the company of her intellectual peers.)</p>
<p>Thanks for all of the insight. Interesting. I’ll have to read up when I have some time. I wonder how these kids make out as adults…finding spouses, enjoying careers, etc. Sounds like it can have ups and downs. Gheez…careers, spouses…forget I wrote that! Let’s just focus on college :)</p>
<p>I have three boys, and each one was tested and declared “gifted” at about the second grade. I haven’t thought about their “giftedness” for quite a while now, but this thread is bringing back all sorts of memories…</p>
<p>Son #1 and #3 are pretty easy going and are able to “go along” with the program. They would do fine at any school. Currently Son #1 is a senior at a public charter school (rigorous academics) and is thriving there. He is applying to some UCs, LACs and ivys. </p>
<p>Finding the right “fit” for Son #2 has been more difficult. When he was young, he would confide in me that he was smarter than all his teachers. At first, I didn’t know what to make of this statement…it sounded so arrogant…and yet his 3rd grade teacher assured me that there was some validity to this statement. He was pretty bored throughout much of his early schooling but he refused to be singled out and “challenged.”</p>
<p>In many ways, Son #2 is brilliant, yet right now, the best “fit” for him is our local public high school. Do I think he is being challenged to the best of his ability there? No, but he seems happy, and that is all I ever really wanted. Son #2 hasn’t decided what colleges to apply to, but I can see him at a large university, lost in the crowd…</p>
<p>sjmom,
I went back to your original post and read through all the comments again. This is a topic which truly hits home for me. One night while we were eating dinner while our S was in 4th grade he asked, “Do I really need to go to school anymore? I think I could be using my time at home far more productively.” My H and I stopped eating and looked at each other. We knew certain things about this child, but he was our first, so we really didn’t know what was not “normal.” We figured we had a bright kid. His first grade teacher had told us that he was was most intuitive math student she had taught in 25 years. Another grade level teacher told me the first week of school, that although she hadn’t yet found 15 words he couldn’t spell, that she would. Eventually she gave up and worked on vocabulary with him. When he made his statement questioning whether he really needed to go to school anymore, we knew we needed more information. We were very fortunate to be put in touch with an educational psychologist who specialized in testing highly gifted children, and so we put our 4th grade S through a two day battery of testing with this psychologist. My S asked us if he could continue to go see the psychologist and take the tests rather than go back to school. When we finally sat down with the psychologist to review the test results, my jaw literally dropped. Through use of certain Stanford/Binet testing models, as well as many other testing applications, the psychologist is able to identify “extraordinarily” gifted kids, and “profoundly” gifted kids. These are measured on a strict numerical scale. The results forced us to face the reality of our situation. This child was walking around the perimeter of the schoolyard at recess time because he had no one to speak to about the things he was talking about. Our school district offered to skip him a grade which we declined, since he would have been the smartest kid in the 6th grade rather than the smartest kid in the 5th grade. We sent him to an independent school in the 7th grade, one of those expensive private kinds that periodically get lambasted on this forum. We made financial sacrifices to do it but never looked back because he was actually challenged and not thoroughly bored there and had teachers who would talk to him about his ideas. We found that although it was exasperating to watch him work (a world class procrastinator) he could read and synthesize huge amounts of information and relate one subject to another. Although he had a natural facility for all things mathematical and scientific, that wasn’t his love. History was. He applied to an LAC which has the reputation of having the most academically intense campus. He is a junior, dual honors major there. He is engaged and challenged. In his situation, I honestly do not believe that this would have been the case in an honors program at a state university. He was offered unsolicited full ride scholarships to a number of OOS universities, but we made the choice to make more of a financial sacrifice because the “fit” was clearly so important for this particular child. We also realize that we are blessed to have had the choice to make those sacrifices.</p>
<p>As part of the normal process for applying to private school my then four year old son was tested and determined to be intellectually gifted. As parents of an only we didnt have a lot a basis of comparison but, as parents often do, we knew his way of looking at the world was different from his peers. </p>
<p>Eventually because of our geographic location he attended first a school that was exclusively for gifted children, second a school that had a pullout program, and third an otherwise excellent school that refused to accept that intellectual giftedness even existed. He is now at a rigorous but nurturing LAC where, I think, he has found his true home.</p>
<p>Intellectual giftedness is widely misunderstood. It is different from artistic, athletic or musical giftedness though the intellectually gifted may have other talents as well. Gifted children are often NOT the vals, or all A students or the perfect scorers. In fact they often do not get good grades (or at least consistently good grades). They may have social or developmental issues and acting out, inexplicable tears and difficulty interacting with other kids can be common. There are often disciplinary problems.</p>
<p>What gifted kids share is an ability to conceptualize on a unique plane whether its verbal, spatial, or quantitative. They really do think differently. If channeled properly they can become the dreamers, the inventors, the creative thinkers of the future but if stymied or discouraged they can also be dismal failures.</p>
<p>I often joke that the gifted designation is a lifelong affliction. For parents it is a responsibility, a burden and a God-given opportunity. Many people ask why gifted kids need so much special handling. If theyre so smart, they should be able to figure it out. The gifted label smacks of elitism and there is an understandable amount of resentment as it is an elusive quality that difficult to quantify or explain. (We all have our the moment we knew stories. For us it was when our preschool son drew an aerial view of an Asian temple complex that we had just visited and asked me to label the salient features for him.) </p>
<p>It really, really helps to be in an environment that is structured to deal with gifted kids. Some of issues that cause gifted kids from realizing their potential in a mixed environment are:
- They often focus intensely on what they are interested in and let the rest slide.
- They are perfectionists and find closure difficult. They procrastinate: if you dont start, you cant fail.
- They are often bored out of their skulls and respond in seemingly inappropriate or excessively creative ways to ordinary assignments.
- They tend to hide their abilities because they want to be like everyone else to the extent of dumbing down their responses. </p>
<p>There is no single best college or type of college for gifted kids, but finding the right fit may take longer and, if like many gifted kids, your child is lopsided in grades or scores, convincing a rigorous school to take a chance may take some extra energy. For my son, who is interested in art/art history/religion Williams has been like heaven on earth. For the first time since his kindergarten days at the exclusively gifted school his insights and intellectual quirkiness are constantly being reinforced and enhanced. He’s still not getting all A’s, but without doubt his brain is operating at maximum capacity.</p>
<p>“For the first time since his kindergarten days at the exclusively gifted school his insights and intellectual quirkiness are constantly being reinforced and enhanced.”</p>
<p>For me, this is what it is all about. I agree completely with your description of gifted kids – they just think differently, in my experience, and I think that this attribute makes them much harder to parent. It’s not that they can’t do well in a variety of environments. But what’s important to me is that they be truly happy and comfortable. I want them to see themselves grow into all that they can become – potential doesn’t matter so much until it is realized. S2 is a youngster who, like the scarecrow, thinks “deep” thoughts. That makes it harder for him to just be happy.</p>
<p>A lot of gifted kids don’t have “peers” in HS. The loneliness and sense of estrangment can disappear at the right college.</p>
<p>I remember for me it was having his nursery school teacher tell me very matter-of-factly that at the age of 3 he could be doing 2nd grade work but it was good I still treated him like my baby because he needed that emotionally. That was the same year, when his grandfather died, he spent all day in the nursery school yard just looking at the grass. When I got there to pick him up he looked up at me and asked, “Mom, is heaven a rainbow?” I don’t even believe in god so could not answer…</p>
<p>And now he’s the smart-ass in the back of the class. Best thing that ever happened to him was having a religion teacher threaten to give him an A-. She just wanted him to get off the too-cool-for-school act. I dream of the day he will be able to spend time with other kids who share his quirky mind and yet pass his cool screen. </p>
<p>Of course, having sent my kids to alternative private schools without testing until high school I have absolutely zero idea if he qualifies as “gifted”. </p>
<p>Oh well. Sorry. Having a hard day and showing off about S makes me feel better. Luckily this is anonymous…</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Quite true. For intellecutally gifted kids, one of the greatest things about attending a school full of intellectual peers is BEING NORMAL for the first time. That feeling of “Finally! My people!” </p>
<p>BTW, Alu, my littlest son (then age 5) said “Mom, do you think God is real, or just a story? See, I think the priests made God up to calm people down.”</p>