<p>Perhaps it’s time for other states to adopt ‘continuous confinement’ laws like they have in Washington State. Predators who serve their original sentence are often held indefinitely in Washington State prisons, and are periodically evaluated for possible release, which in many cases means never.</p>
<p>This sad news comes from my hometown. There are no words to describe the unbelievable grief and anguish of the families and of our community. The outpouring of support of the larger community has given me a glimmer of faith in humanity. The lives lost have a real face now. They were someone’s brother, son, classmate, husband, friend…hero. My 2 D’s are profoundly affected by this tragedy. To lose a classmate and friend in such a senseless slaughter is unfathomable. These were wonderful men - true heroes. You all would have liked them.</p>
<p>We are a typical quiet middle class suburban town that will never be the same. This is not what we want America to become but it has come to my town. Evil has made its mark here but I believe that goodness will prevail through the love, support and prayers of everyone.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I suppose it is possible, but at the time he apparently had what one might call a psychotic break. He “came to” in a family car in a roadside rest stop, many states away, and turned himself in to the local police. Supposedly, he didn’t know how he got there or exactly what had happened. That’s what we were told, anyway. </p>
<p>The other murder, which tool place a year or two before, remains officially unsolved. A young girl disappeared, and her decomposing body was later found in a wooded reserve area. The only clue was that a white car was seen in the area before she vanished. Not only did his family have a white car at the time, but the girl and her family had lived next door to his family previously. And he was an Eagle Scout who spent lots of time in the woods.</p>
<p>Extremely coincidental in a town in which those were the only murders in decades.</p>
<p>Frankly, I would never feel safe in his vicinity.</p>
<p>This evil man lived among us for many years in my town, a quiet, normal middle class community. Sometimes you do not know the background of those in your community. </p>
<p>Please pray for the families affected by this tragedy. Hearts are very heavy here.</p>
<p>In yesterday’s NY TIMES, the report was that possibly the shooter was responsible for a rash of burglaries in which guns were reported being stolen. Perhaps he knew the community enough to know who had guns, when they would be out and thus acquired his arsenal. These guns were not obtained legally by the shooter (nor was the gun used in the recent mall shooting in Oregon-stolen from a friend’s house). Apparently there was long dispute between the shooter and his adult sister about their family house. Both lived there with mother who recently died.
I know Webster and have driven on that road as younger d attended University of Rochester. I also work with the schools there. I can only imagine how heartbroken and distraught the community is…to lose these first responders in such a horrific fashion. My heart goes out to their families.</p>
<p>cormom, I am so sorry. My uncle was a volunteer firefighter in another small town just a few miles up the road from Webster. I can only imagine the toll this is taking on your community. My thoughts are with you.</p>
<p>Thank you. Our community is a mix of many emotions - a sense of gratitude first and foremost to the first responders who selflessly put their lives on the line, and a sense of profound shock and sadness for them, now the victims and their families as they try and cope with this loss. Both were fine, wonderful people, one a bright,capable young man just starting out in a career of serving his community, and the other, his mentor who was well known as a role model for students in the schools and the community. Christmas Eve services were dedicated to these men, as priests and congregations choked back tears of sorrow. Hope will rise from these ashes.</p>
<p>I have trouble following some of the “logic” presented in this thread.</p>
<p>Spengler got out in 1998. He had been clean of the law for nearly 14 years. So:</p>
<ol>
<li>Until he did this, he had 14 years without violence. Most people become less, not more violent as they age. So how exactly would any state or commission have decided that this one guy should have remained in jail? He was in for a violent crime, not for a molestation crime of the sort covered by the various “hold because dangerous” laws. Any program to keep people in prison indefinitely without those special circumstances - even with them if the number grows - is almost certainly unconstitutional. (And reeks of a totalitarian state.)</li>
<li>The cost of prison is extremely high. A study from January, 2012 got responses from 40 states. The cost of prison in those was about $40B. (The reason for the study was to compare budget versus actual and it found budgets underestimated by nearly $6B the actual cost.) Note that gap in prison cost versus budget is bigger than the entire personal firearms industry in the US.</li>
<li>One can only imagine what the cost of prison would be if we kept more people in. State budgets are already so troubled that prisoners are being released. </li>
<li>The cost of prison for older people is very high. They get sick. They require extra management. Prisons aren’t meant for people who need 3 different medications at 5 different times a day. And denying them is unconstitutional. (Though that happens. A lot.)</li>
<li>As for the death penalty, it costs in the millions to kill a single prisoner. It’s cheaper to keep them in prison for life. Let alone that we tend every now and then to kill innocent people because the places where the death penalty is most common tend to be the most prejudiced. </li>
<li>How did a felon get guns? He got them because guns are common. He either stole them or bought them. He could go to a gun show - not in NY - and buy guns without a background check. No one he met would have a reason to believe he was a felon. We don’t tattoo that on your face. NY and 16 other states have some restrictions on selling at gun shows but he could have gone elsewhere. I think the closest state with no checks at all is Ohio but PA only requires checks on handguns. So he could buy them. We don’t search peoples’ homes looking for weapons.</li>
</ol>
<p>I agree with Lergnom, who raises very valid points.</p>
<p>Just my speculation: the killer’s break may have occurred after 14 years because his mother died in October. She was probably the one who made sure he got his meds on time, and kept peace in the family. Once she was no longer around to administer the meds, he stopped taking them. </p>
<p>Two things might have prevented this tragedy. We should require background checks at gun shows. What a loophole that is. It’s as if we regulated sale of alcohol to minors, so we allowed booze shows where kids could go buy alcohol without proof of age. </p>
<p>The second thing we should do is somehow encourage people to protect their firearms more securely. (We hold homeowners accountable if they have a swimming pool in their backyard and don’t fence it.) We should encourage homeowners to have guns in safe areas where they are not visible, easily accessible, or easily stolen.</p>
<p>Insurers care if you have a pool, a water slide or a dog but they do not care if you have a gun.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>true. too bad for the innocents in this story.</p>
<p>A neighbor gave him the guns even though she knew he was not allowed to have them.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In retrospect publishing interactive maps to all of the homes with guns was a stupid mistake. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You are making a meaningless distinction. </p>
<p>You cant buy a firearm from a dealer without a background check regardless of where you are- store, gun show, private residence.
A private citizen can sell their gun to another person regardless of location. So they could sell you can gun at their house, an estate sale, or a gun show. </p>
<p>The gun show thing is a moot point. Its just a place where a private party can sell a gun they no longer want/need. Spengler could just as easy bought a gun locally from a private party. Driving to Ohio for some “loophole” wasnt necessary.</p>
<p>No, the point is that you can buy a gun without a background check at a gun show. That’s why it’s called the gun show loophole. The point, of course, is that gun shows don’t only include licensed dealers. And of course it’s a version of a private sale and it was not inaccurate to say he could have driven in a car to Pennsylvania to buy a gun other than a handgun at a gun show without a background check. That would for many people be easier than finding a private seller in his area, which I assume is why he had a friend buy a gun from a dealer (if that is in fact true).</p>
<p>Ironically the only issue in a private sale would have been if he had traveled to another state. In that case federal law would have prohibited the private sale. See here:
[ATF</a> Online - Firearms - Frequently Asked Questions - Unlicensed Persons](<a href=“http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/unlicensed-persons.html]ATF”>Unlicensed Persons | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives)</p>
<p>It quite easy to find a private seller of guns so there is no reason to go to a gun show unless you are interested in browsing an array of firearms. The guy had lived in the area for 60 years and I doubted he had any lack of knowledge about who in the community were hunters. It is easy enough to find someone who wants to upgrade, or doesnt hunt anymore or a widow selling off guns. Or even the local swap sheet lists things at estate sales. </p>
<p>And there are a lot of private seller marketplaces on line. For instance calguns.net.</p>
<p>There is really no reason to thing that the gunshow “loophole” has a significant effect on the availability of firearms used for illegal purposes.</p>
<p>Oh I agree Lergnom, your points about indefinite confinement, as regards cost, are quite correct. People have debated and screamed for indefiite confinement and “three strikes” laws…until they get the bill, in terms of additional tax-based expenditures.</p>
<p>A neighbor gave him the guns even though she knew he was not allowed to have them.</p>
<p>Oh my! Why???</p>
<p>He went with her to gunstore, selected the weapons he wanted, gave her the money to pay for them and paid her to buy them for him.</p>
<p>
I wonder how she feels right now? I hope terrible. I hope she ends up in jail, which she should, and feels even worse.</p>
<p>This is the trouble with many of these laws - criminals, including this woman intent on perpetrating a crime, ignore or flout them. One thing would have prevented this for sure - that murderer should have never been let out of imprisonment - there’s something seriously deranged about someone who murders his Grandmother with a hammer.</p>
<p>consolation - that murderer you described held my H upside down over a campfire while in the Boy Scouts.</p>