That is a very interesting question and one that is a huge debate. I realized several years ago that there is a difference across regions of the country. In California, hot mopping (black tar goo) is the most prevalent shower pan waterproofing. Most of the old school tile guys insist on hot mopping. Once I used a backup tile guy (referred by my regular guy when he was too busy) that used the waterproof membrane stuff on a shower on a 2nd floor. My guess is that he was not experienced with the product. First shower that the buyer took caused the dining room ceiling below to saturate and collapse. That was a $4,000 mistake on my part since I insisted on making it right.
Because of that, I use only my 2 tile guys and they insist on hot mop. I have not had any luck with the membrane stuff.
Which brings us to current project. The owners had their master bathroom remodeled about 10 years ago and the thick membrane stuff was used instead of hot mop. The shower started leaking into the slab and there is evidence that it leaked up into the hardi board behind the tile (we can see this on the exterior of one wall that is demolished out for the family room addition).
So, owners hired another guy to come in and do another remodel just recently. When we broke out the concrete patio adjoining that master bathroom exterior wall, and the owners had the shower going, we saw significant evidence that the concrete slab under the shower was getting wet. The newer remodel guy used ‘Red Goo’ to waterproof the shower pan. I personally don’t think the Red Goo is for the pan, the Red Goo is used to waterproof the walls only (see photos from my previous projects). Either way, it failed and now the shower pan is leaking into the slab again.
So, the owners have a sad issue. The newly tiled shower is going to have to be torn up to analyze the situation. If we do a hot mop, the tile has to be torn out at least 12 inches up from the floor. And, the hot mop will cause the lower part of the walls to be at least 1/2" thicker than the upper part of the walls. And, we have to exactly match the grey subway used in the recent remodel, which should be OK because she just bought that new tile about 3-4 months ago so hopefully it is still in stock.
My most expert tile guy is coming the week between Xmas and New Years to tear it open carefully and try to isolate the issue. Owners are hoping that they only have to retile the shower floor because maybe it is just the drain area that is leaking. We cannot make a diagnosis without tearing up some of the tile.
This issue was not discovered until after the plans were approved and we were tearing out the exterior patio (and could observe the full side of the slab under the master shower). So, we are going to have to just do this repair outside of permit inspections.
That’s very interesting… do you see cracks in the grout that would be letting water through? Or is it 99% likely that the issue is with how the drain was done?
I believe that the owners do not feel that the handyman is going to provide a warranty on the work. Also, they are a little hesitant to ask him to do it again.
There are no visible cracks in the grout down low at the shower pan. Of course, with all the pounding on the exterior wall and gorillas walking on the ceiling above (including having to re route some plumbing in the ceiling and the shower/toilet vent) there is a new visible crack in the corner grout but it starts at the top of the shower and only goes down 3 ft. This was caused from the work. We are trying to be very very careful with that wall because of the tiled shower on the other side of the wall. We are lucky that we have only caused a hairline crack in the corner grout and haven’t cracked off tile. But we still have the drywall installation to go and you never know! Also, we have to pound in a giant metal strap across the top of the wall and that has to be done with manual hammering. Might have one guy go inside the shower and put a piece of plywood and hold it against the wall when that is going on!
My parents shower failed, it was 30 years old and the house was rented to others at the time. Of course, being a small town and in this boom that followed the 2008 bust, well, most guys had left the business. The series of events was ridiculous, from my prior excellent guy seeing wet floor when a tenant moved out and, reasonably assuming it was the prior tenant being careless, so $1000 to fix the damage, to the new tenant complaining it was leaking, got a new door ($450), still leaking. We have a local handy guy (prior guy is now too busy) come out and reseal/regrout the bottom portion ($), still leaking. In the midst of all this we are replacing the floor because we think the leak is fixed, lino is removed, only a wooden subfloor is there, but it is wet. They let is dry a few days and the tenant proves it is still leaking.
For literally months we try to get bids, the better pried bids literally say they can do the job in 9-12 months. We had to go with the priciest guy because by the time it was done, it was 9 months of assorted leaking and 6 months with the wooden sub-floor for the tenants. He was pricy due, he said, to that high class Schluter system. I hope it, at least, lasts until we sell the place! Itl does look good.
It had a lot of good marketing stuff, but why bother trying something new when the old school hot mop works?
There’s no one left here who knows how to do a good hot mop job and very few who have installed a Kerdi shower before. We went the Kerdi route when we remodeled but had to wait on an experienced installer when the original (<10 yr old) shower pan failed. It’s been three years and so far no problems. Too many contractors here get sloppy with the drain installation and/or fail to properly slope the floor.
Tile and grout are mainly for looks and not for water proofing; the subsurface must be waterproof. We still have builders here who rely on green board under wall tile with no protection, then blame the homeowner when the shower leaks.
Green board (which is mold tough drywall) for shower walls is a really bad idea. It is not stiff enough, or waterproof enough. You need a solid stiff wall for tile and to get the wall waterproofed
Lately i have been doing hot mop for shower pan and then Denshield wall boards. Denshield is like a stiff thick fiberglass compound that you purchase at the tile specialty stores. Then you coat every bit of it, especially nooks and crannies, with the Red Guard waterproofing goo. But that is walls only.
Some old school guys still “float” the walls with dry cement and chicken wire on top of hardi board. But its labor intensive so costs more.
The key for the tile guys is they need a really level wall going up with the tile.
Green board is what the prior owners used in building the second master bath shower (yes, two showers in a 7x9 bathroom) and the tile fell off the wall when the water got behind it. I am really concerned about spending $$ to renovate/repair and have this kind of leaking. Our 50 yo blue tub shower is still intact and no leaks. OTOH, we have no desire to spend $50k on a bathroom reno (three of the four quotes we got were 50+ – that’s way too much for this neighborhood.
Yikes, I just cringe when I hear quotes from contractors for $50k to do a bathroom remodel. Highway robbery!!! But, there is a lot of back/forth “hurry and wait” involved with a bathroom remodel. You just cannot go in and get it done in 3-4 days. You have to demo… wait for plumber to move things around in a wall, wait for electrician to move things around, build up shower pan, get hot mop/shower pan waterproofed, wait for inspectors to show up for small inspections, then wait for homeowner to get the tile, wait for tile guy to finish tiling, wait for homeowner to make decisions, then come back and install final finishes, then wait for glass company to install shower doors. It’s a lot of spurts of activity
I loaded some photos of boring infrastructure activity
@thumper1 The repair of our 10 yr old shower was from June. The handyman who worked on it was meticulous and knowledgeable and showed us every step he was taking. Since he was trying to fix someone else’s work (of one of those shower pan liners that failed) Hubby and I don’t really blame him. It’s just frustrating, but also shows me the power of water - and tiny small leaks. The Grand Canyon was carved by water…lolol
Yesterday we passed our major framing, electrical, roof nailing and plumbing inspection. We were held up waiting for the fancy kitchen folding window. When I called the guy early in the week to confirm picking up the window on Wednesday, the 3rd, he said 'Oh, that got pushed to Jan 10th". I went ballistic and told the guy that our entire schedule is waiting for that one window to get installed for our inspection. Without that window, I have to call up all trades down the line (stucco, drywall, roofing, flooring) and reschedule.
Next thing I know, he calls back and tells me they will personally deliver it on the morning of the 4th. This gave us just enough time to get our inspection scheduled for Friday. However, I am not happy with some of the cosmetic sloppiness of the window construction. It works beautifully, but there are some areas where the vinyl casing is not installed/glued well. Luckily, these areas are underneath the countertop. We are setting the window 2" below countertop level so that the window is somewhat flush with the countertop to give a seamless look to the outside countertop. It cannot be totally seamless because the exterior has a standard threshold lip which requires the exterior countertop to be set about 2" lower than the kitchen countertop. Oh well
Also, be forewarned. Because of the heavy structure requirements of this window, the stiles/casing are very wide and the amount of glass letting in natural daylight is limited as compared to a regular sliding window. And the glass is tinted/Low E/Argon/Tempered and is darker than normal. I looked at the construction of this window and I can see exactly what the manufacturer did. They took their ‘folding accordion door’ and just made it smaller. It has a strange large metal threshold that would be on a patio door bottom, but is not normally on a window (where water runs off on exterior). So, I don’t think this is a true folding window, but more of a really tiny patio door configuration.
This one is from Win Door which is a local company
We are onto tile selection, which means the fun part of the project is finally beginning. Owner selected a pale grey large subway for the shower. We have a niche built into the shower and, at first, we were going to put in a contrasting tile in the niche, but the niche is small and everything just kind of looked ‘busy’ in the niche. So the subway continues through the niche. A nice marble small 1x1 for the shower floor and a neutral minimal pattern white 12x24 floor. But the fun part is going to be the midnight blue vanity with a full wall backsplash. That is going to be a beautiful white herringbone pattern.
I have loaded pictures of construction, shower tile
And, we are proceeding to the powder room where it’s going to be a bold design. Several tile samples selected (photos loaded) for the full wall behind the sink. Here are some of the ‘inspiration’ photos.
It doesn’t seem like progress to us! Two steps forward and then one step backward. Just this week the Inspector made us go back into the City (worst nightmare ever!!) to do a Change Order. We discovered a couple of weeks ago that 2x8 rafters cannot have R30 insulation in them. The original house was built with 2x8 rafters for cathedral ceiling with R19 in them. Somehow R30 is new code requirements. The draftsman had slipped in ‘Rigid’ R30 insulation, but my research showed that it was very costly to do the spray foam or rigid insulation. The issue is that R30 fiberglass insulation is 9" thick. The cavity is only 7 1/2" deep and there is no room for ventilation, and you are not allowed to ‘compress’ the insulation into the cavity. Plus, we had to go back and drill 3 holes in every block in the ceiling (a whole day of work) to get ventilation flowing up through the cavieties. I walked around the entire original house and it never had any roof ventilation, there are no roof vents on any house in the neighborhood (which I find very interesting).
Dang it.
Flurry of research and phone calls to my roofer. Roofer suggested Therma Sheet radiant barrier applied on top of the roof, under the paper. When we mentioned our solution to the Inspector, he had never heard of it and said we had to go back through Title 24 calculations and go into the City for a ‘Change Control’. Luckily my Title 24 guy agreed it was the best solution and he regenerated the calculations for free. Then I had to go back to the draftsman to change 2 of the design blueprint sheets, go get those copied. Of course, the City was closed the whole Holiday week. So, we rushed in with an appointment on Thursday and were able to accomplish the change for $93 and 1 1/2 hrs of sitting at the City. Ugggh… did I say many many times before that I hate permits??? The whole thing was stupid.
In general, my gut feel is that we are 2 weeks behind. Cabinets arrive on Jan 26th and we are rushing to get insulation, drywall and painting complete in order to install the cabinets. Cabinet installation is going to be difficult because we have a lot of ‘custom’ things that have to match up in the kitchen (like the expensive appliances that have strange electrical, gas and water hookup locations). I’ve never seen an appliance ask for the ice maker hookup to be less than 2" from the floor. And, the refrigerator has cabinet panels installed for a full built in look.
Original schedule was to be done and moved back in by Feb 15th or so. I don’t think that is going to happen because after kitchen install we have all new flooring, powder room install, baseboards and trim. That usually takes about 2 weeks.
We will be getting to the “fun stuff” so soon! As a first time renovator (observer), I am amazed how much infrastructure goes into construction. The crew is working their butts off! One of CB’s guys is younger than all of the rest of us (haha), and he actually jogs from task to task. He doesn’t ever seem to have “nothing” to do…he always finds ways to be productive. This guy is the definition of a self-starter that you would see claimed on many a resume :). The other two main crew members have lots of experience, and seem to roll with the punches and changes with patience and aplomb, even if they may privately think the homeowners (hubby and I) or the inspector are crazy.
CB is encouraging me to find the stone countertops that make me feel like I’d like to lay all over them, wondering WHERE they have been for the last twenty years. Loved that advice! How many of you have taken satisfied naps on your counters?? LOL. What is it about stone that is just so wonderfully attractive?!?
Hope the quest for the perfect stone is going well!
While my countertops are only 95% stone (quartz) I am absolutely in love with them. They sparkle at me when I walk into the kitchen in the morning. And they are a piece of cake to maintain as they are impermeable! I have not taken any naps on them but my cats try to.
@emilybee That is SO funny! Just like CB is predicting! @BunsenBurner I am going to take CB on a field trip to a stone yard. Now that hubby and I have been to a few places to get our feet wet, I need her focus me!
Today we passed 2 more inspections and we are done with all inspections until the final inspection when everything is done. Our insulation is in, drywall installed and exterior paper and chicken wire installed. The City made us do a nightmare job of drywalling ceiling, posts and beams in garage under the attic conversion. This involved a million nooks and crannies and puzzle pieces. Now we have to mud, sand and texture all these nooks and crannies. It took 6 man days just to get the drywall installed, 3 guys x 2 days.
Next couple of weeks will still be a lot of infrastructure. Roof is getting installed this weekend, stucco going on next week, drywall needs to go through 6 days of taping, muddling, muddling, sanding, muddling and final texture. The original house has low orange peel texture, which is not a favorite of mine:) we are going to do a smooth skip trowel in the new large great room area, including smoothing over the original walls. But it is too expensive to trowel over all the other walls downstairs. So, the magic answer is to make sure to paint with flat paint. The texture will recede from the eye versus a paint with any shine in it.
Our goal is to have all walls ready, primed and painted before Jan 26 when the kitchen cabinets arrive. We are also under the gun to pick wall paint color and the flooring. We need to get the flooring ordered so it can be delivered to get acclimated by Feb 1st.
As George Takei would say, “Oh, MY!”