<p>"… unless one is willing to believe GZ smashed his head against the concrete and punched himself in the nose as part of a brilliant scheme to claim he was engaged in self defense. I don’t think GZ is that smart."</p>
<p>It’s what I would have done if I’d just shot an unarmed child. (I guess that makes me smart!) In any case I agree with you that GZ isn’t a candidate for Mensa.</p>
<p>one thing that bothers me so much about how TM has been characterized as a thug, and a suspect, etc. Aside from the fact that he was a 17 yr old HS junior, he did in fact “belong” in the neighborhood where he was walking back from the corner grocery, where he had gone to purchase Skittles and iced tea. He was unarmed, no gun, no knife, nothing. </p>
<p>why so many people are willing to believe that this kid initiated and attacked GZ is beyond me, when we know that GZ was following him, after perceiving him as a thug. this in my opinion is where TM’s race is playing out. If my white/blonde/blue eyed 17 yr old was returning to our gated community in Florida, after purchasing Skittles and iced tea, (which he does regularly) he would have been assumed to be a neighbor and been greeted with a hello. my neighbor who has three black sons, recognizes that her kids are often viewed as a threat simply because they are black.</p>
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<p>Oh, I suggest that it won’t be hard for “common experience” to equate blows to the head to threat of death or serious bodily injury.</p>
<p>Check out the medical position. A simple fall can cause this.
[Traumatic</a> brain injury: Causes - MayoClinic.com](<a href=“Traumatic brain injury - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic”>Traumatic brain injury - Symptoms & causes - Mayo Clinic)
[CDC</a> - Traumatic Brain Injury - Injury Center](<a href=“http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/]CDC”>Traumatic Brain Injury / Concussion | Concussion | Traumatic Brain Injury | CDC Injury Center)</p>
<p>I recall the “don’t shake the baby” campaign on billboards, mags etc. and the push to have helmets for everything from skiing, bicycle riding, etc because head injuries can be so deadly or dangerous.</p>
<p>I find this case very interesting. I have heard from two friends who have completely differnent “views” based on what they have heard, read, think they know. Both of them claim to be religious and both of them feel that if GZ is guilty that he will have to account to God for that sin. </p>
<p>So far neither one would be willing to vote as a juror to convict, even the one who strongly believes there was no self defense. It would be great to know how “religious” the jurors believe they are.</p>
<p>^ on the brain injury and threat of death or serious bodily injury, if that was true, why didn’t GZ go to the ER??</p>
<p>07DAD, Just curious, do your friend’s often have this view, that a defendant should answer to God but not necessarily be convicted of the crime they are accused of if found guilty?</p>
<p>Newhope, I find it interesting that you refer to TM as a ‘child’. Biologically, I think that term is incorrect. And practically, I don’t think it fits, either. I have a 17-year-old, and although she is my ‘child’, I in no way look at her as a child.</p>
<p>Since we’re talking “niggles” I’ll share mine. GZ straps on his piece on a Sunday night and heads out to do some shopping at Target. He sees “something” that disturbs him, and calls 911. So far, so good. (I don’t see why he needs a pistol to buy toiletries, but whatever.)</p>
<p>From this point on, it gets bizarre. GZ elevates TM from “suspicious” to “suspect” … a leap still unexplained. He gets out of his vehicle … something FL Neighborhood Watches say not to do. He follows “the suspect” against police instructions. He reports that “the suspect” is running (proof GZ’s been seen) but fails to abandon pursuit (as 99% of the population probably would). Then there are a couple more “somethings” and GZ reports “I got him … one clean shot through the heart.” </p>
<p>I don’t think GZ took off after TM with the intent to kill him. But there’s no indication TM could have done anything that night to avoid being killed, whereas GZ could have done a half-dozen things differently and avoided TM’s death. GZ’s judgment that night is highly suspect. Why should his judgment that “I needed to defend myself” be any less suspect?</p>
<p>According to the female friend, Martin said ZM was a “creepy ass cracker.” He later said that N word is still following me.</p>
<p>And he said the N word behind me.</p>
<p>She heard Martin say “get off get off”. That’s damaging to GZ.</p>
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<p>It is GZ’s perception of the threat when he pulled the trigger not afterwards. He remained on the scene, was treated by the emt and then was escorted by the police to the station and was there for 5 hours.</p>
<p>^ yes, but if he had repeated blows to the head, going to an ER would be a reasonable decision to make to rule out a concussion etc.</p>
<p>I believe it was written that GZ refused going to the ER, said he was “fine”. If you thought your life was threatened by repeated head blows, why would you then be fine?</p>
<p>ss - I take your point, and agree with it. I use the term “child” because that’s the FL legal definition for a person under age 18. (I stumbled across this while researching FL statutes to see if GZ might more appropriately be charged with Manslaughter, rather than 2nd degree homicide.)</p>
<p>It is not disputed that Zimmerman told the policy operator that he was following TM, was told the police didn’t need him to do that, then said TV was running.</p>
<p>I wonder if the “car chase” mentality entered into GZ’s emotional state at all. One thing police know around the country is that police officers who engage in car chases after a fleeing suspect tend to be more aggressive and emotional toward the suspect than police officers who confront a stationary suspect.</p>
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<p>I worked contruction after college waiting on the draft. A three story scaffold I was standing on collapsed and I rode it down. I recall thinking “I’m a goner.” I hit my head on the edge of something in the fall. </p>
<p>The owner of the construction crew came tearing up and offered to take me to the ER. I declined and said I was “ok”. Several days later, the headaches and dizziness convinced me to have it checked out. Turned out I was wrong.</p>
<p>In my experience a traumatic experience does not lead to rational decisions afterwards. I have also been a fight (or two). The adrenaline covers up a lot of sprains/non surface damage at the time.</p>
<p>Maybe when GZ left his vehicle to follow TM he was thinking ‘carpe diem’ but it came out ‘compen dio.’ (jk folks, though I suppose anything’s possible.)</p>
<p>I see your perspective 07Dad, however I continue to think that after one has killed someone in “self defense” one would be willing to simply be checked out at a hospital. to refuse to go is unusual imho. </p>
<p>GZ did say, these punks, they always get away=not this time</p>
<p>“these punks, they always get away=not this time”</p>
<p>Compendio, compendio! (It sounds less threatening in Latin.)</p>
<p>It’s not just not going to the hospital - Zimmerman in fact didn’t have a concussion. Even minor head cuts can bleed profusely. The cuts suggest that he may have hit his head on something hard - but not how it happened or how hard the impacts were, or even if that’s actually how the cuts happened. Self defense requires an actual belief that your life is in danger. That’s where Zimmerman’s statements are interesting. He puts a variety of statements in Martin’s mouth which provide justification for such fear. But those statements include one after he was shot, at which time (according to some medical experts, anyway) Martin would have been physically unable to speak. </p>
<p>The real problem is that Zimmerman exemplifies the NRA ideal - a “good guy” out to stop the “bad guys” - and a scary black bad guy, at that. That’s why it’s such a problem that he screwed up - the “scary black bad guy” was a 17 year old out to buy Skittles, not a burglar, and the gun enabled Zimmerman to make a mistake with life ending and life altering consequences. </p>
<p>It’s not supposed to happen that way. Guns are supposed to make you safe. Law abiding gun owners are supposed to always be courageous non-victims, not potential unwarranted killers.</p>
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<p>Once you’ve made the serious mistake of allowing a physical engagement to occur when you have a handgun in your pocket or on your person, your life is in danger.</p>
<p>I have to believe that part of the perfect storm of lousy happenings in this case is that, if Zimmerman somehow overestimated Martin’s age (which I doubt), I think its likely that Martin correctly assessed Zimmerman’s ability (i.e., lack thereof) to physically defend himself, but didn’t expect to encounter a pistol. </p>
<p>I think the case will turn on whether a fistfight/brawl should end with a shooting. Unfortunately the second degree charge seems to carry with it a bias towards people who were engaged in another crime and unintentionally ended up killing someone (as I read the FL statutes). I think manslaughter might have been easier to get and more appropriate.</p>
<p>to linz, post 244. What? I think you are combining 2 separate things o7dad (his post 243)said.
One of his statement about his friends was that if he is guilty he will have to account to God. The other said that at this time, neither of his friends would vote guilty.</p>
<p>I interpret his statements that if GZ is found not guilty by jurors, but he really is, then God will deal with what Fl law doesn’t. I interpret the second statement as his friends would need to hear more evidence before they’d vote guilty.</p>
<p>And clearly, the second statement is different than many here that believe they’ve heard enough already.</p>
<p>Question: Will the jury be permitted to decide that it’s manslaughter instead of 2nd degree murder? Can they convict on a lesser charge, or is it guilty/not guilty of murder, no other option?</p>
<p>^ I have no clue as to what will be allowed. (Is stupid recklessness a chargeable offense?)</p>
<p>I read the FL Statutes, and it was hard to see how Manslaughter fit. I agree that 2nd Degree Murder seems overly harsh.</p>