<p>Prove definitively != prove beyond reasonble doubt!</p>
<p>yes, razor, true. There are a few of us though, waiting on more evidence before we make our minds up.</p>
<p>yes, ttp, that’s what I thought you meant- prove definitively equals beyond reasonable doubt. And since you said “no way to prove definitively” that means having a reasonable doubt you’d vote not guilty.</p>
<p>!= is “not equal” (it is a programming notation).</p>
<p>Why does it matter whether what I believe? We are discussing about the evidence and the events, it is not a contest and try to show up the other person. No need to label me or try to belittle for having certain view.</p>
<p>that’s good, wait for more evidence. I am not a juror, and I am permitted to have an opinion based on evidence thus far. My opinion has no bearing on the case so you can stop acting like it’s so outrageous to have a formed opinion. Furthermore, it is interesting that you don’t see the outrageousness of how TM was the one treated as a criminal at the crime scene. (or should we not call it a crime scene either?) If you were as open minded as you claim you would certainly note this discrepancy.</p>
<p>forgive me then for looking at your words rather than knowing computer programming.
But if you say “they can’t prove definitively…” might imply a great likelihood, but doesn’t that mean there is some uncertainty? And if there is some uncertainty, wouldn’t a person have to vote not guilty?</p>
<p>As I understand it, TM was likely treated the way he was because every known eyewitness account(one) explained what happened and there was no evidence at the scene at that moment that contradicted the explanation.
Of course, further explanations and further evidence may show the initial explanation was not true.</p>
<p>At this point, I think GZ is more likely than not to be found not guilty. Many have pointed this out (I think by various lawyers on this thread) that this is a very difficult case for the prosecutor. But I am a father of a teenage kid, and I can’t help but think that there is something wrong here with excessive and deadly force being used way over the bound of common decency.</p>
<p>Like I said, younghoss, I am only speculating about the police’s role in all this. This particular department does not have a great track record on either the quality of its investigations or its treatment of black citizens. If I recall correctly the police chief was fired a few months after the shooting for his mishandling of the case. </p>
<p>It’s hard to understand the racial dynamics and tensions in Florida if you haven’t lived there and experienced them firsthand. I have.</p>
<p>
Wait, what?</p>
<p>“As I understand it, TM was likely treated the way he was because every known eyewitness account(one) explained what happened and there was no evidence at the scene at that moment that contradicted the explanation.”</p>
<p>you mean GZ’s version of what happened? </p>
<p>I can’t understand how a dead 17 yr old lying face down in the grass doesn’t present enough of a reason to not simply believe the shooter. seriously.</p>
<p>I live in a gated community in Florida, and I don’t always know everyone who might be walking around. And we do have teens who come visiting friends. When I see someone who I may not know while I’m out walking my dog, guess what strange behavior I engage in. I say hello. Helps me to see their response. I don’t imagine bad intent. And don’t create a conflict. </p>
<p>If GZ was such a great neighborhood watch why couldn’t he simply identify himself and explain why he was following him? His perception of “thug, they always get away with it” influenced his behavior and the outcome.</p>
<p>I’ve not known what to make of the whole business behind the talking heads. To me, the big issue is having so-called neighborhood watch people running around with guns, and the conduct of the local police. I don’t know what Zimmerman had in his heart when he pulled the trigger. I speculate that it wasn’t self-defense; but I also speculate that he thought he was doing the right thing. </p>
<p>And I’m glad they having a trial, whatever the outcome.</p>
<p>My gated neighborhood tried to get a watch team going on. The idea got shot down real fast when the guy who lived near the gate suggested recording anyone who came in or out of the neighborhood from his second story window. I feel the best “watch” is friendly neighbors. Neighbors who communicate and are aware.</p>
<p>
I’m unaware of any “evidence” of this. To the contrary, the girl who was on the phone with Martin testified that Martin first ran from Zimmerman and later confronted Zimmerman and demanded to know why he was following him. Zimmerman’s own story is that Martin ran away from him and later confronted him and demanded “You have a problem?” Not much disagreement there. That seems to be an undisputed fact in the case.</p>
<p>I’m curious where your understanding of the “evidence in the case” comes from?</p>
<p>
I’m not sure what the point here is, but… 158 pounds? That’s not my idea of a big guy. I haven’t been 158 pounds since I was 15. At 5’11" he’s just slightly above average for an American male.</p>
<p>
Actually, I have found that people tend to select who they adopt a “let the system play out” attitude about. I came early to an opinion that the guilt of the Duke Lacrosse players was not plausible based on public evidence. Others disagreed. I have no clue about Casey Anthony. I have serious misgivings about the case against Amanda Knox. I’m not sure about your opinion on those cases.</p>
<p>Neighborhood watchers are not law enforcement by any stretch of the imagination. They are just created to alert police of suspicious activity in crime prone neighborhoods. GZ should not have followed TM. In martial arts they teach control. I wish GZ also understood that a good gun owner needs to have control. He had a gun, but was not in danger, he should not had followed or engaged anyone. His gun was to be used only for self defense IF attacked and only IF he believed he was in mortal danger. In this case I believe GZ did not acted in self defense and a crime was committed. Now let’s see if the prosecution can prove it.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I agree. I guess it’s human nature not to want to believe the worst about people. What I find interesting on this thread is that, based on the comments, no one here would likely want a GZ-type neighborhood vigilante in their community–and no one seems to be defending the role he played in his. Personally, I’d feel far less safe on a day-to-day basis knowing some wannabe cop with too much time on his hands was patrolling my neighborhood–ARMED, no less. In my experience the neighborhood watch people tend to be retirees who are home all day and like looking out the windows at the birds and passersby…not young men like GZ.</p>
<p>For those of you attributing improper motives to the police: Wasn’t the original story that the original police interrogator recommended GZ be charged, but was overruled by a superior? Wasn’t that in fact why the supervisor had to resign? Or am I misremembering.</p>
<p>As for the blood evidence being washed away by the rain, that doesn’t make sense to me. The police were on their way long before the actual shooting, and I believe evidence shows they arrived within a matter of minutes, and tarped TM’s body. Unless it was absolutely pouring, I don’t think there was enough rain to wash away the amount of blood GZ’s claimed injuries would have produced from under finger nails. If you look at the pictures of the body, you don’t see drenched clothes, and the police are wandering around without looking like they’re in pouring rain. Not to mention the fact that if TM hit GZ “25 to 30” times, there had to have been some sign on TV’s hands, and there was none.</p>
<p>Here’s a timeline of the phone calls. <a href=“http://gzdocs.com/documents/opening_graphics/timeline.jpg[/url]”>http://gzdocs.com/documents/opening_graphics/timeline.jpg</a></p>
![http://gzdocs.com/documents/opening_graphics/timeline.jpg[/url]](http://gzdocs.com/documents/opening_graphics/timeline.jpg%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
<p>From when GZ was told not to follow, until the first neighbor called 911 is only 4 minutes and 15 seconds. A tragedy for all in such a short time.</p>
<p>I find the speed with which this happened further indication of GZ’s potentially trigger-happy state of mind. Really…he knew the police were on their way and he couldn’t just try to defuse the situation he created for a few minutes?</p>
<p>
One of the witnesses seemed to confuse the larger man with Zimmerman and the smaller man with Martin, which wasn’t the case. Whether that’s relevant or not, who knows, but some people look at the pictures of Trayvon when he was much younger and are confused. Zimmerman was a short, shlumpy guy who, for some reason, seems bigger.</p>