Florida v. Zimmerman

[BCEagle91]

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<p>A pistol is an unsuitable weapon for hand-to-hand
combat. (It’s a lot like fighting while holding a 2-lb.
Heavy Hand training weight.) </p>

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<p>Yes. But if it’s all that you have, you use it.</p>

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<p>I am struggling to understand why someone who did
MMA training several times a week, who fancied
himself the brave defender of his gated community,
and who had a significant size advantage over a
teenage boy couldn’t handle a simple tussle on the
ground, if that’s what it was.</p>

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<p>Z has had MMA training? I haven’t seen this anywhere. Do you have a source?</p>

<p>Z doesn’t strike me as the fanatical fitness type to be in MMA.</p>

[07DAD]

<p>MichiganGeorgia–</p>

<p>It not only is about what females might think, it is about what these 6 particular females think.</p>

<p>I, for one, appreciate the female “juror” take you bring to the table.</p>

[NewHope33]

<p>“The only physical explanation that I can see is that his head was above the ground and he was hit in the nose which forced his head to the ground where it would feel like his head was bashed on the ground.”</p>

<p>I like BC’s proposal. When a person is being sat on … regardless of which “ground and pound” position one favors … the natural reaction is to raise one’s head. Indeed, laying one’s head back was the “I give up” signal in our family. (Again, see this: <a href=“http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/howard-v-hallman.jpg[/url]”>http://prommanow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/howard-v-hallman.jpg&lt;/a&gt; )</p>

<p>If BC’s proposal is representative of what happened, then it explains Good’s testimony and GZ’s injuries (because it doesn’t take much to force a person’s head down while in that head-slightly-raised position). </p>

<p>What’s missing is how TM gets shot. A cursory examination of the referenced image suggests how difficult it would be extract a pistol and get it aligned so the bullet enters the center of TM’s chest, straight in. Also missing is how TM’s body gets from the sidewalk to where it was found. Perhaps eastcoastcrazy’s unflattering view (in #577) deserves further consideration.</p>

[NYMomof2]

<p>BCEagle: “Z has had MMA training? I haven’t seen this anywhere. Do you have a source?..Z doesn’t strike me as the fanatical fitness type to be in MMA.”</p>

<p>It has recently come out that Zimmerman belonged to a gym specializing in MMA for 18 months leading up to the shooting. The PA who testified today said that he went there 3 times a week. He has gained 100 lbs since the shooting. He looked much more fit then.</p>

<p>Apparently it came out in the trial today that Zimmerman practiced MMA 9 hours a week. I saw this reported, didn’t hear it myself.</p>

[kluge]

<p>Leaving the details of what specifically happened, step by step, when TM confronted GZ the second time their paths crossed, my overall take on this is more in line with the opening statement of the defense than the prosecution: This is a sad event, but there are no monsters here. I don’t think that either GZ or TM are bad guys, as much as the proponents of opposing views would have you believe so. I think they were both just normal guys.</p>

<p>It was a misunderstanding - and not that unreasonable. GZ thought TM was a burglar. That’s not unreasonable - young black men had been seen burglarizing homes in the neighborhood before. It’s not “racist” to consider the likelihood that this young black male stranger is a criminal under the circumstances - it’s a reasonable thing to consider. Calling 911 was not evidence that GZ was a racist.</p>

<p>But once he started to follow TM TM was understandably concerned. He doesn’t know he’s neighborhood watch. A 17 year old being followed by an adult male has every reason to be concerned that the man harbors bad intentions. So you have a situation - GZ thinking he’s following a burglar, and desirous of making sure he doesn’t get away, and TM, exhibiting bravado to his friend on the phone, but undoubtedly worried about why this creeper is following him. </p>

<p>And then they meet.</p>

<p>Maybe if one of them were more diplomatic everything would have gone well. But under the stress of the situation neither seems to have had the presence of mind to defuse the situation. They were both just regular guys. A bit immature, a bit insecure, covered up by a little machismo. Still, the overall outcome probably would not have been too bad, but for one thing - the same thing that I believe pulled GZ out of his car.</p>

<p>Zimmerman had a gun. He was the “good guy with a gun” that Wayne LaPierre extols. It was the situation that Kleck and Gertz tell you happen all the time: you pull out your gun and a crime is prevented. But what Kleck and Gertz don’t tell you (in addition to the fact that their numbers about gun use preventing crime are laughably inflated in a way that has been exposed and dissected thoroughly) is that many “crimes” that were “prevented” by a guy with a gun grow out of a situation which was initiated or escalated by the gun toter himself - like this one. But the propaganda thrives in young men like George Zimmerman, who arm themselves in the belief that they won’t screw up; they’ll be the hero. After all, who isn’t a “good guy” in their own mind?</p>

<p>The real “bad guy” here is the NRA. LaPierre and his gun manufacturing paymasters profit and young people die.</p>

[wegotin]

<p>I agree that training in MMA and sparing are very different a real fight, however I have a purple belt in karate and I can tell you that if GZ was trained in MMA he could have defended himself or at least avoid some of the injuries . I believe the only reason he did get hit was that he was trying to get his gun from his holster. A 200 lb MMA trained man with a gun is really afraid for his life against a 17 years old? Hard to believe.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>Okay, thanks. I found a few forum comments that referenced news articles.</p>

[barrons]

<p>Most of the shooters and victims of guns probably never heard of the NRA. They are young blacks killing other young blacks.</p>

<p>[America’s</a> gun problem is not a race problem - CNN.com](<a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/15/opinion/frum-guns-race]America’s”>http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/15/opinion/frum-guns-race)</p>

[BCEagle91]

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<p>What’s missing is how TM gets shot. A cursory examination of the
referenced image suggests how difficult it would be extract a pistol
and get it aligned so the bullet enters the center of TM’s chest, straight in.</p>

<br>

<p>Well, we don’t know that the reference images is the “Ground and Pound” position in this case. We aren’t supposed to link to images here but you can look up Ground and Pound in google images and you’ll see a wide variety of positions including those where he would have access to a gun on his hips.</p>

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<p>Also missing is how TM’s body gets from the sidewalk
to where it was found. Perhaps eastcoastcrazy’s unflattering
view (in #577) deserves further consideration. </p>

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<p>I have not studied this particular issue. I will look for a picture at some point.</p>

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<p>America’s gun problem is not a race problem - CNN.com</p>

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<p>Didn’t the parents say that this was not a racial profiling? I think that the prosecution said that it was a race problem.</p>

[NYMomof2]

<p>BCEagle: “Okay, thanks. I found a few forum comments that referenced news articles.”</p>

<p>The information about the MMA gym came out very, very recently. At the time of the shooting, I wondered whether Zimmerman was a gym rat. Although he was pudgy, he moved like a fit person, for example, in the video showing him arriving at the police station. He easily gets out of the car using only his legs, his hands being in handcuffs.</p>

[Krlilies]

<p>

I can tell you that if GZ was trained in MMA he could have defended himself or at least avoid some of the injuries

A roundhouse kick would have sufficed.</p>

[kluge]

<p>What makes you think that young black men have never been exposed to the ideology pushed by the NRA, Barrons?</p>

[BCEagle91]

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<p>The information about the MMA gym came out very, </p>

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<p>I wasn’t following the case that closely until I started watching the Hernandez case and then saw this thread show up a lot.</p>

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<p>very recently. At the time of the shooting, I wondered
whether Zimmerman was a gym rat.</p>

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<p>Seems like he really stunk at fighting though.</p>

[razorsharp]

<p>

The real “bad guy” here is the NRA. LaPierre and his gun manufacturing paymasters profit and young people die.

</p>

<p>Look at that. I agree with Kluge.</p>

[JAMCAFE]

<p>Lots of wimps get Martial arts training, for self defense. I was a wimp who took up Tae Kwon Do and my Jr wimps are now black belts. They teach you to use enough force to repel the attack but to exercise control once your opponent/attacker is down or retreating. They also teach you not to panic.</p>

<p>GZ ignored everything he was taught - MMA training, fire arms safety, neighborhood watch guidelines. Failed to heed the 911 operator. </p>

<p>His real defense may be diminished mental capacity. He had a rotweiler, concealed weapon, MMA training and he still didn’t feel safe. He saw a suspect everytime he saw a black man. He was a tragedy waiting to happen.</p>

[07DAD]

<p>

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</p>

<p>Local Sanford add.</p>

<p>It will be interesting to see if either side gets a witness on whether GZ was any good. My Son when he was 14 was in an adult TKD black belt class. An adult “black belt” was in the full contact sparring line with him when the class was preparing for an upcoming tournament. He broke the adult’s arm with a kick. The adult wasn’t paying attention. There’s a serious difference between taking a class and getting what you are being taught.</p>

<p>I’d like to see GZ’s weights on the PA’s forms between when he was saying he was doing MMA three days a week and had trouble sleeping and the TM shooting.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>In my self-defense course, they emphasized that the best option is to run.</p>

[wegotin]

<p>I have to agree, only a dumb person would fight an unknown “suspect” in a “crime infested neighborhood”.</p>

[nysmile]

<p>[Witness</a> puts Zimmerman on bottom of fight | HLNtv.com](<a href=“http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial?hpt=hp_t2]Witness”>http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06/28/questions-still-loom-over-george-zimmerman-trial?hpt=hp_t2)</p>

<p>pretty much sums up today’s testimony</p>

[sally305]

<p>

GZ ignored everything he was taught - MMA training, fire arms safety, neighborhood watch guidelines. Failed to heed the 911 operator. </p>

<p>His real defense may be diminished mental capacity. He had a rotweiler, concealed weapon, MMA training and he still didn’t feel safe. He saw a suspect everytime he saw a black man. He was a tragedy waiting to happen.

</p>

<p>This.</p>

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