For Evangelicals, Supporting Israel Is ‘God’s Foreign Policy’

Parent Cafe
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<p>“opinion reaffirmed by millions of people forming their own opinions over hundreds and hundreds of years, in some cases thousands. It carries transcendent weight”</p>

<p>Welcome, fresin, and thanks for the thoughtful post. </p>

<p>I do see your point. I would modify it slightly to say that some archetypal concepts endure throughout millenia, whereas man-made dogmas tend to come and go. Joseph Campbell goes into great depth on this topic in his classic work ‘The Power of Myth.’</p>

<p>It is debatable whether the ideas that form religions and governments really are the will of the masses. Throughout history, a very few powerful people have typically controlled the populace, and the people were expected to accept whatever the leaders told them. Anyone who questioned, anyone who had the courage to be an independent thinker, often had to go underground, or risk being put to death, excommunicated, or some such punishment.</p>

<p>Hence, the ‘secret societies’ such as the Freemasons and Knights Templars, have existed throughout history and were the keepers of secret knowledge.</p>

<p>So, it might be more accurate to say that traditions have been based on the opinions of whoever happened to be in power at the time, than to say that they are based on the opinions of all the people practicing those traditions. It might be safe to say that the vast majority of people practicing any given religion or tradition did not do so by choice.</p>

<p>Also, many traditions have been kept alive thoughout centuries, and are generally accepted. That does not necessarily make them ‘right.’ War and slavery are 2 examples that come to mind. Look how long it took for slavery to finally be deemed unacceptable. (Our country gets the credit for that wonderful advancement!) Now if only the concept of war could follow suit.</p>

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<p>"We have a man in charge of our enviromental policies whose says, no worries, God is still up there, so to paraphrase “what ever happens its okay cause we got God”</p>

<p>Yes, and that’s just like the attitude of “We don’t need to worry about cleaning up the planet, because we’re all going to raptured up soon anyway.”</p>

<p>In all fairness, there is a new trend among Christians to become more environmentally conscious. It’s a fledgling trend but gaining momentum.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/ecology.html[/url]”>http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/ecology.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think it’s wonderful! Maybe there can be some reconciliation between the Christians and environmentalists.</p>

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<p>Citygirlsmom, please do not lie. "if he is gay, he should have come out, and said see, you like me, and I am gay, you like my leadership of your church and I am gay…you as church going people shouldnt hate gays, becuas ethan you hate me…</p>

<p>that is what a true man of God would have done"</p>

<p>That was your post about Haggard. Sounds to me like you are clearly referring to the congregation as being gay haters.</p>

<p>CGM, I challenge you to read the transcript of what this man said, and even better watch on TV. Listen to the tone. The voice inflection. It was obvious to anyone who wants to understand his words, that the mean was joking kinda mocking.</p>

<p>The point I was making about the opinions and teachings of that came thousands of years before me is that my opinion as a 17 yeard old kid does not hold much weight. It has not stood the test of time. Nor, am I a biblical scholar. I was referncing some of the greatest Jewish learners, who were incidentally some of the greatest learners and scholars ever. Maimonadies, Nachmonidies, Rambam, Rashi, Akiva, the Great Vilna of Gaon. These men devoted their lives to religion and their opinions have remain unchanged. When CGM attacked me on a perspective of studying the bible I ffered she said that people should not listen to “Golani’s method”, I agreed with her, people should not listen to my methods on studying the bible, but they should listen to those like Mainomidies, who have been validated for thousands of years by the revernce they get. One of the greatest Rabbis of modern time, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, of late memory, the Rebbe of the Lubavitch movement, had opinions that held much sway, why because of his ability in studying the bible. No one cares what CGM thinks or what I think or Lealdragon or HH, because we have not reached even 1/1000 of how these men studied.</p>

<p>Lealdragon, you said “It is debatable whether the ideas that form religions and governments really are the will of the masses. Throughout history, a very few powerful people have typically controlled the populace, and the people were expected to accept whatever the leaders told them. Anyone who questioned, anyone who had the courage to be an independent thinker, often had to go underground, or risk being put to death, excommunicated, or some such punishment”</p>

<p>Now when I posted that orginial comment, I was referring to Jewish biblical scholars. Things may be different in catholisicm, but what you mentioned is plain wrong. The Great Vilna of Gaon, a Litvak(Lithuanian Jew) one of the most learned and respected Torah scholars of all time, was fervently against the Hasidic movement when it first began to spring up in certain parts of Eastern Europe. This man almsot called them blasphomous, yet the Hasidim grew strong and now they are considered the strongest believers. No one put them to death or attacked them physically. It was a second idea on the Torah and they turned out to be right and the Vilna Gaon turned out to be wrong. Or take for example two schools of thought School of Shamai and School of Hillel. Shamai and Hillel were the heads of generation in torah study, yet they greatly differed on opinion in many situations such as things like white lies, Hillel’s opinions prevailed, yet people who followed Shami were never attacked ostracized, excommunicated etc. Here is a reference in the Talmud, Jewish Oral Law, to these Rabbincal experts. “The gentile came before Shammai and requested, ‘Convert me on condition that you teach me the entire Torah while I stand on one foot.’ He [Shammai] pushed him out with the ruler in his hand. He then came before Hillel, who converted him. Hillel addressed to him the immortal words, ‘That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn.’” Afterwards, the successful convert declared in the presence of Hillel and Shammai that it was Hillel who had been his salvation. Essentially, another part of Jewish law, in the Tanninim era, was added to the full accordance of Jewish law. These at first were opinions, and now they are “commandments”, for lack of a better word. That is how important the teachings of those before us are in Judaism. The point I am making, is that at least when it comes to Jewish thought, the Bible has been the same since its giving or its first writing. Jews now follow laws and read the same texts that Jews thousands and thousands and thousands of years ago did. The teachings and opinions formulated by people then like Maimonidies 13 Principles of Judaism have held so much weight it is amazing. Unlike many other religions the teachings and philosophies always change, but not in Judaism. Granted there are small variances in traditions, but the law and the commandments remain the same.</p>

<p>CGM, as for public policy should be completely seperate from religion is not necessarily true. Crimes like murder or institutions like marriage and incidentally divorce, national holidays like Christmas,(which celebrates the philosophy of Jesus which has shapped America) have all to do with religion, wether you like it, which you dont, or not.</p>

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<p>My dear Le: I will try to make this simple: We are adults here in the parents forum (wiith the exception of golani, who seems quite clear as to what he believes). We have fully formed religious, spiritual, etc. beliefs at this point in our lives.</p>

<p>We are not interested in having a discussion with you about the pros and cons of our beliefs. We never said we did.</p>

<p>You and cgm seem to think you are having a conversation with other people, but it is really only an imaginary conversation which is occurring only in your own heads.</p>

<p>While you and cgm are having these imaginary discussions, I personally would appreciate it if you could take care not to insult the beliefs of others in the meantime. Thanks.</p>

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<p>golani, thanks for enlightening us on these great Jewish people who dared to question. I don’t know much about Jewish history.</p>

<p>Just recently I was quite surprised to learn that early Jews commonly believed in reincarnation. </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Reincarnation_and_Jewish_Tradition.asp[/url]”>http://www.aish.com/literacy/concepts/Reincarnation_and_Jewish_Tradition.asp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The people who were put to death or excommunicated, that I was referring to, were Christian. I’m glad to hear that this was apparently less common in the Jewish tradition. (Except, of course, the obvious exception!)</p>

<p>I also want to commend you for being so outspoken about your beliefs at such a young age. When I was 17 I really didn’t know what I believed. </p>

<p>Rock on!</p>

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<p><when i=“” was=“” 17=“” really=“” didn’t=“” know=“” what=“” believed.=“”></when></p>

<p>Well, that’s a shocker.</p>

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<p>“national holidays like Christmas,(which celebrates the philosophy of Jesus which has shapped America) have all to do with religion…”</p>

<p>Actually, Christmas was originally a Pagan holiday, which got merged with the new tradition of celebrating the birth of Christ. It was a political decision to choose an existing Pagan holiday to mark a Christian event, in order to convert the Pagans more easily.</p>

<p>Personally, rather than wanting all religious holidays to be eradicated, I believe quite the opposite. I would love to see lots of religious holidays from various traditions celebrated with equal reverence. That’s what we do in our family. We celebrate the Solstice and then we celebrate Christmas, for example. I think religious holidays are beautiful and should be celebrated, and shared with people of other faiths just as we share anything else that is meaningful to us.</p>

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<p>Please share with us your views of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam.</p>

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<p>I was about to reply from a post by someone named hh but then I realized I was dreaming. Hmmmm…strange how ‘imaginary’ posts keep appearing in this thread. Very strange indeed.</p>

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<p>“Please share with us your views of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Islam.”</p>

<p>I was about to but then I remembered that I can’t trust any of the posts in this thread to be real. Must be a lucid dream. Dang, sure seems real.</p>

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<p>Well, “Life is but a dream.”</p>

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<p>Ah, there is that imaginary post again.</p>

<p>hh: since you are a dream character, I hope you have a happy dream life!</p>

<p>I need to go wake up now. bye bye.</p>

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<p>Judaism teaches, as far as I understand, that a person’s soul belongs to God. From what I remember, 3 things can happen to a soul when a person dies. 1. the soul belongs to a “tzadik”, meaning righteous man, and it goes to God and sits with him. There, by the way, is a huge distinction between righteous and good or kind. To be a righteous man is very hard. 2. a “regular” person’s soul goes up to god, and is given to another person. The torah teaches, that each person or soul, has a God given mission to complete. That mission could span many different lives, so in someones life the mission may not be always completed, (although a person is considered to die because his mission on earth is completed or his soul can no longer fulfill the mission in its present body) and the soul has to complete the mission in a different body. There is a story that deals with that. A baby was born to a couple and some great Rabbi, I forget who although I think it was the Baal Shem Tov, was invited to the circumsicion. The baby underwent the circumsicion, and then died. The parents were devastated, they cried, and when they asked the Rabbi why this happen he got a vision of sorts, and replied that the prior body the soul was in did not have a circumsicion and that when this baby had the circumsicion, the mission was accomplished and the soul ascended to God. 3. A completel evil person’s soul stays with the body.</p>

<p>And btw, not only was Shammai, not ostrasized for having opposing believes from Hillel, who was more popular, but he was also the head of the Rabbinical court and one of the writers of the Mishnah (part of the Oral Law). In addition both Shammai and Hillel are mentioned in the Talmud. This just goes to show how important certain peoples opinions were.</p>

<p>Granted, anyone who openly tried to go against the most basic and obvious Jewish principles could have been and would have been ostrasized and possibly “excommunicated”, for lack of a better term in english. Those would have been people who beat their family, murderers, idolaters, etc…</p>

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<p>O and CGM, does it surprise you that the “Golden Rule” is essentially religious in nature and it came into existance through religion.</p>

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<p>You can apologize for insulting many of us here tomorrow, le; it’s okay. Nighty-night.</p>

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<p>Very interesting! I didn’t realize that a version of reincarnation was a common belief in Judaism. I wonder why it is that Christianity considers it a ‘satanic’ view.</p>

<p>And why is it that SOME Christians said I was ‘satanic’ for believing in reincarnation? I’ve never heard them say that Jews were ‘satanic.’ In fact, at the Christian homeschool co-op, they welcomes Jewish people but not New Age people. Sorry, I’m confused about this. Maybe they don’t know about Jewish secret beliefs? Maybe?</p>

<p>No insult intended here, imaginary friend…just honestly wondering.</p>

<p>As for the ‘Golden Rule’ yeah Jesus was really cool. So were many of the other great Masters throughout history. I think God sent them to different cultures at different times because God cares about ALL of creation. Interesting how the basic values of love, kindness, forgiveness, generosity, etc. are to be found in some form in nearly all the religions. </p>

<p>When I was reading the Bhagavad Gita, I was struck at the similarity between it and certain parts of the bible. Similar allegorical format and similar message. When I went to a metaphysical bible study class, we looked up the words in the Concordance. The layers of meaning are quite similar in that respect.</p>

<p>Rather than believing that only one book is from God and all others ‘satanic’ I prefer to believe that inspiration from God is to be found in many different books, different places, all around us. Isn’t the Living Spirit awesome!</p>

<p>Imaginary discussions sure are fun. golani, are you a dream character too?</p>

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<p>Why do dream characters think they are being insulted when other dream characters disagree with them?</p>

<p>Ah, maybe that’s why they call it ‘living in a dream world.’</p>

<p>Dream on!</p>

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<p>marriage is not religious, it is a legal contract, otherwise why would a couple have to register with the state…it is a ceremony that often takes place in places of worship, but by no means needs to be to be valid…in fact, until you fill out some government forms, you aint married…and what about common law…</p>

<p>and murder, you don’t think that people who do not believe in God know that murder is wrong, it wasn’t necessary for someone to be religious to know that killing is a bad thing</p>

<p>Christmas, well, do some reading about Christmas…its origin…it was all molded around fitting Pagan holidays, the Romans wanted to keep everybody happy when they invaded, so blended “holidays”</p>

<p>And while your at it, do some real reading on the Founding Fathers and their writing on religion</p>

<p>Interesting stuff</p>

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<p>ld…hey!!! nice posts by the way</p>

<p>I am sending you a PM about a book that others here seem to be too chicken to ask about…</p>

<p>Anyway, you may not agree with some of it, which is cool, but it is very interesting and I know you will find it intriguing</p>

<p>Night my imaginary friend…sometimes imagenary acquantences are the best kind</p>

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<p>Actually, lealdragon, the Golden Rule even came before Jesus.</p>

<p>Marriage, originially is a religious thing. By very nature marriage, no matter who performs it, is religious.</p>

<p>Ofcourse people who do not believe in God, believe murder is wrong, but the orgin of that belief is religious. We both know that.</p>