For Evangelicals, Supporting Israel Is ‘God’s Foreign Policy’

Parent Cafe
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<p>From NY Times</p>

<p>As Israeli bombs fell on Lebanon for a second week last July, the Rev. John Hagee of San Antonio arrived in Washington with 3,500 evangelicals for the first annual conference of his newly founded organization, Christians United For Israel. </p>

<p>He called the conflict “a battle between good and evil” and said support for Israel was “God’s foreign policy.”</p>

<p>The next day he took the same message to the White House.</p>

<p>Many conservative Christians say they believe that the president’s support for Israel fulfills a biblical injunction to protect the Jewish state, which some of them think will play a pivotal role in the second coming. Many on the left, in turn, fear that such theology may influence decisions the administration makes toward Israel and the Middle East.</p>

<p>Administration officials say that the meeting with Mr. Hagee was a courtesy for a political ally and that evangelical theology has no effect on policy making. But the alliance of Israel, its evangelical Christian supporters and President Bush has never been closer or more potent. In the wake of the summer war in southern Lebanon, reports that Hezbollah’s sponsor, Iran, may be pushing for nuclear weapons have galvanized conservative Christian support for Israel into a political force that will be hard to ignore.</p>

<p>For one thing, white evangelicals make up about a quarter of the electorate. Whatever strains may be creeping into the Israeli-American alliance over Iraq, the Palestinians and Iran, a large part of the Republican Party’s base remains committed to a fiercely pro-Israel agenda that seems likely to have an effect on policy choices. </p>

<p>Mr. Hagee says his message for the White House was, “Every time there has been a fight like this over the last 50 years, the State Department would send someone over in a jet to call for a cease-fire. The terrorists would rest, rearm and retaliate.” He added, “Appeasement has never helped the Jewish people.”</p>

<p>This time Elliott Abrams, the White House deputy national security adviser who met with him, essentially agreed, Mr. Hagee said. </p>

<p>Leaving the White House offices, “we felt we were on the right track,” he said. </p>

<p>Now, in tandem with the Israeli government, many evangelical Christians have focused on a new villain, Iran’s president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Evangelical broadcasters and commentators have seized on Mr. Ahmadinejad’s comments questioning the Holocaust and calling for the abolition of the Israeli state. And many evangelicals now talk of the Iranian leader as a “mortal threat” to Israel. </p>

<p>Some evangelical leaders say they are wary of reports that a panel including former Secretary of State James A. Baker III might recommend negotiating with Iran about the future of Iraq. “It certainly bothers me,” said Dr. James C. Dobson, founder of Focus on the Family and one of the most influential conservative Christians. “That has the same kind of feel to it as the British negotiating with Germany, Italy and Japan in the run up to World War II.”</p>

<p>At rallies this fall for Christian conservative voters, Dr. Dobson sometimes singled out Mr. Ahmadinejad as a reason to go to the polls, arguing that Democrats could not be trusted to face down such dangers. “Hitler told everybody what he was going to do, and Ahmadinejad is saying exactly what he is going to do,” Dr. Dobson explained. “He is talking genocide.”</p>

<p>The same name, with many pronunciations, comes up repeatedly on Christian talk radio shows, said Gary Bauer, a Christian conservative political organizer. “I am not sure there is a foreign leader who has made a bigger splash in American culture since Khrushchev, certainly among committed Christians,” he said.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?hp&ex=1163566800&en=fba77299178204a6&ei=5094&partner=homepage[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?hp&ex=1163566800&en=fba77299178204a6&ei=5094&partner=homepage&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>isn’t it swell that people want foriegn policy based on bible stories? sigh</p>

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<p>Don’t think this makes a lot of secular American Jews very happy. We squirm plenty over the fundy love, since they just want Israel for their rapture anyway (they think the inhabitants of the country are all going to hell, save a very small number of blessed converts)…</p>

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<p>yep, its like saving the land waiting for its destruction</p>

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<p>Amen. Plenty of us already disagree with the idea of supporting everything Israel does with no questions asked. I don’t feel Jews need “friends” like Dobson telling us that Democrats “could not be trusted to face down such dangers” when a majority of us voted Democratic this year, and most of the Jewish members of Congress are Democrats. Perhaps he thinks we are too intellectual, too effete – dare I say too Jewish? – to respond properly to the threat.</p>

<p>I am also no fan of the Uncle Tom Jews that the Pat Robertsons of the world like to trot out to prove that theirs is a “Judeo-Christian” perspective. Thanks, Pat, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t slander my people by categorizing your vision of the future as Judeo-anything.</p>

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<p>Ill take Dobson anyday. I dont agree with alot of what he says but let him keep the money flowing to Israel. We Jews should be grateful for it.</p>

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<p>“You Jews” are a very small faction of American polical decision making, since most American Jews are secular and vote Democratic. Overwhelmingly so.</p>

<p>Don’t you care that the fundies think you are going to hell, Golani?</p>

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<p>I agree with you. But I dont care. Israel needs money and as long as they are shuffling it our way I am grateful to them. What “you Jews” means I dont no. You are just as much a Jew as me. How can we possibly turn down charitable money from these people. Thats really what it is. They donate loads of money to Israel. Ill take it.</p>

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<p>It comes at a price, Golani. Are you willing to be bought?</p>

<p>That’s what it comes down to. The fundies don’t care about you, me, your Israeli family members, or mine. They care about the land, and while they may be “supporting” Israel, they are only supporting their own ideology. Their support of Jews is faux; they don’t care about you at all, and would drop you in a New York minute, if you get in the way of advancing their plans.</p>

<p>I don’t like their views, and I don’t want to be bought. So nope…I am opposed.</p>

<p>PS “You Jews” was in response to your claim in the prior post or “We Jews should…”.</p>

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<p>I’m not so sure about that.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.eppc.org%5B/url%5D”>www.eppc.org</a></p>

<p><the ethics=“” and=“” policy=“” center=“” was=“” established=“” in=“” 1976=“” to=“” clarify=“” reenforce=“” the=“” bond=“” between=“” judeo-christian=“” moral=“” tradition=“” public=“” debate=“” over=“” domestic=“” foreign=“” issues.=“”></the></p>

<p>There’s an intriguing article there I haven’t read yet–“Let’s Stop Stereotyping Evangelicals.”</p>

<p>Stanley Kurtz, one of my favorite columnists, is a senior fellow at this center.</p>

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<p>HH, just takes one gander over at: </p>

<p><a href=“http://www.raptureready.com%5B/url%5D”>www.raptureready.com</a></p>

<p>to prove my point. </p>

<p>But share some Stanley Kurtz, by all means.</p>

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<p>How many Fundamentalist Christians have you sat down and spoken with Allmusic? I don’t happen to be one, but I know and have known plenty. And one thing I can tell you is that most of them still fervently believe that “the Jews are God’s Chosen People”, and that that makes them special in the eyes of God. Asked whether or not Jews are bound for hell, many will insist that God has a “special plan” for the Jews because they are “His Chosen”. That chosen stuff is written in the bible somewhere—that’s where they get it from…Anyway, you would be surprised by the deep respect many Fundamentalists have toward the Jewish people, for just that reason. Yes, they believe Israel is Holy ground, and home to God’s Chosen, and that it is God’s will that it be defended at all cost. </p>

<p>Many Muslims, on the otherhand, believe that the Jews, above all “Infidels” are “pigs and apes”, whom Allah abhors, that they (YOU) should be destroyed to his glory. Do you like that doctrine any better than you do that of the Fundies?</p>

<p>I don’t get it. I don’t get the vitriol (so white hot I can sometimes feel it through my monitor) you and others, such as CGM reserve for Christrian Fundamentalists, while showing virtually no concern for the potential ramifications of world-wide Islamic Fundamentalism. Would you please help me to better understand your point of view? I must be missing something here.</p>

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<p>AM: With all due respect, you are not ready to open your mind to the possibility that your view of the world is extremely paranoid. </p>

<p>Also, you are probably not aware that there is currently a joining of people of all religious traditions–Catholic, Jew and yes, (gasp), even Evangelicals against the increasing secularism in the world. I believe that is what the site I posted is wrestling with. To understand this, though, one has to be <em>tolerant</em> of the idea that there may be a “Judeo-Christian” tradition in this country, and that we have a right to use this tradition to perhaps inform our views in foreign and domestic policy.</p>

<p>I’m sure you detest Stanley Kurtz’ views, but Stanley Kurtz is a Jew. I guess we can’t stereotype all Jews in this country as left-liberal secular Democrats. </p>

<p>You sure are a fast reader. :eek:</p>

<p>xpost with #12 (excellent points)</p>

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<p>Poet, if you read my posts fairly, you will know that I do not share the far left “progressive” view on Islamic fundamentalism. So no, I don’t in any way give Islamists a pass, and have always opined on the very real and existential danger of their views and actions (I don’t happen to believe that the US’s current geopolitical strategy in the ME is the way to combat this threat, however).</p>

<p>I do think that the views of Muslim extremists are significantly more dangerous than those of Christian fundamentalists. But we weren’t discussing Muslims; we were discussing evangelicals and their view of Israel. And interestingly enough, I actually DO know a few evangelicals (they have tried to get me to join their megachurch, before they realized I had my own faith, and were kind enough to back off). In the rapture, they tell me that G-d will save 144 (or maybe it is 144,000) Jews, who will “see Jesus” and be raptured with them. The rest of us are doomed. They are quite frank about this, albeit a little sorry.</p>

<p>However, if you want to compare the threat of Muslim fundamentalists vs Christian fundamentalists, yes, our conversation would be very different.</p>

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<p>I had a very good friend (since lost touch) who firmly believed, as a born-again Christian, that my father, who was not “saved” before he died, was going to hell. I suppose she believed that I, as a Catholic, was also going there. It really never bothered me in the slightest. That was her belief, as a part of her religion, not mine. I have my own beliefs on these things. I thought we had religious freedom in this country. Some people seem to be opposed to allowing born-agains (fundies, evangelicals, whatever) their right to their own beliefs. I can’t explain the paranoid irrationality on the subject of fundamentalists among otherwise intelligent people other than to ascribe it to being part of a much larger agenda. (Case in point: NYTimes article, above.)</p>

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Wow. How tolerant. Now that you’ve shared that would you share your view on whether or not observant Muslims who reject Jesus as Lord and Savior are going to Hell? How about agnostics? atheists? Hindus? And if none of the above, who is going to populate Hell (other than CGM ;))?</p>

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<p>Cur, why do you care about HH’s opinion on who’s going to hell? What difference does that make to you? As long as Christian Fundamentalists aren’t taking airliners into skyscrapers, they can think whatever they want, imo.</p>

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<p>Tolerance? Let’s see what this tolerance hh talks about is all about. </p>

<p>And why do you care why I ask? :wink: If you must know, sunlight kills some nasty germs. Nature’s antiseptic as it were. Let’s get it it out in the light.</p>

<p>In the spirit of disclosure, I believe there is more than one path to God (and Heaven if there is one). I believe Jesus is one of those paths.</p>

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<p>It sounded like yet another jab at HH. I don’t read every thread, but some posters just seem to be a target (not necessarily by you!) and I guess my mommy-instinct makes me want to jump to her defense.</p>

<p>Tolerance means listening to another’s point of view, without either jumping down his/her throat or feeling the need to agree. We can have different ways of looking at things without asking someone to step outside.</p>

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<p>Cur: Please explain to me why it makes one bit of difference whether fundamentalists believe I’m going to hell or not AFTER I DIE. Now, if they were coming after me to kill me on ON EARTH, I would have a problem with it. :slight_smile: I never said I agree with the fundamentalist view, if you’ve read my posts carefully, but I do very much believe in religious tolerance. The fundamentalist Christian point of view has been around a very long time in this country, and as far as I know they’ve not rounded up any non-believers to shoot them. I’m sorry you don’t like the fact that I’m tolerant of their right to their own religious beliefs. Actually I believe there are many paths to God also, and never said otherwise. I don’t think you’ve read all my posts. But I think religious intolerance can be just as pernicious as racial or sexual orientation intolerance. For people here who think they are so tolerant in all areas: think again.</p>

<p>Are you deliberately misreading my words?</p>