For neuroscience, is the prestige of the undergrad school important?

College Search & Lists
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<p>My D is interested in neuroscience, but not medicine. She is open to the idea of attending lesser known schools for her undergrad degree (with the plan that she will probably want to move on for a masters). I feel that in some subjects, the reputation of the school is more important than in others, and suspect that neuroscience may be one of those subjects. I also understand that the list of schools that I might consider prestigious, may not be the same list that someone in neuroscience circles would have.</p>

<p>…and I am making the assumption that the state flagships would be fine, but she’d really prefer a small to mid-sized school.</p>

<p>Is the relative prestige of the undergrad school really important in neuroscience (for future grad school acceptance and/or career)?
If so, what schools would fit that description (in the southeast/east would be our preference)</p>

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<p>prestige only matters to a handful of elitists! neuroscience is a super hard major and I would rather do it in a school with a supportive atmosphere (students not back stabbing) and taught by professors not a TA. </p>

<p>[Muhlenberg</a> College | Neuroscience](<a href=“http://www.muhlenberg.edu/main/academics/neuroscience/]Muhlenberg”>http://www.muhlenberg.edu/main/academics/neuroscience/)</p>

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<p>I think it matters more in some cases than in others. In general the more important things than prestige for grad school admissions will be grades, research experience, test scores and recs. But some departments tend to accept most of their grad students from a limited number of feeder school.</p>

<p>An example of this came when we attended with my daughter an Caltech admissions road show held here in San Diego. They brought out a UCSD science professor, who was a Caltech alum, as a guest speaker. And she served on the graduate admissions committee for her department at UCSD. And according to her, they had a ranking of undergrad colleges and a cut-off below which kids from those schools did not get accepted into the grad program in her department at UCSD. (Her point being that Caltech fell well above the cut-off and having gone there would be a grad school admissions boost). She said the apps from students who had gone to colleges below the mark were basically not seriously considered. </p>

<p>I don’t know on what basis they ranked the colleges nor where the cut-off fell. Also, I don’t know whether this applied to other departments as well, but it wouldn’t surprise me if it did in some form or other.</p>

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<p>When you are talking about a specific field of study, the overall rank of the undergrad institution matters much less than the relative ranking of that individual department in the minds of the grad school admissions committees. The UCSD professor who spoke about her own department’s yes/no list might be surprised at how different it is from the lists maintained by other departments at UCSD.</p>

<p>Your daughter needs to ask the departments that she is considering where their grads end up for MS and PhD programs, how many land in those programs each year, and the funding offers that those students receive. She can then check out the career placement information for the various MS and PhD programs that the undergrad programs feed into.</p>

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<p>coureur, That is exactly the type of thing I am imagining…now…how to get glimpse at those lists…;-)</p>

<p>zobroward, I totally agree about the supportive environment! That is what we hope to find. Hopefully there will be a school that earns the respect of the grad schools/employers and is also supportive. Muhlenberg looks interesting, but a little far and out of the way…can’t completely rule it out, but would love for her to stay closer to home (Florida), or at least be somewhere that is an easy trip away.</p>

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<p>Prestige is less of a factor if she’s truly set on a graduate level education. For getting into grad school, the institutions with a great reputation in biology and neuroscience may be different from your traditional prestigious schools. For example, a degree from Harvey Mudd may be more valuable than Princeton (citing this from a current biology professor at UCSD, which has a very strong neuroscience program, whose on the graduate admissions committee). As for the prestige that will follow her for her life, in most cases, it’s the graduate degree that gets listed on bio’s and resume’s. If she’s looking for a supportive environment paired with a strong program, I would consider some of the LACs. The top LACs send more students to ultra selective grad schools then state flagships or the ivies. I can’t think of any ridiculously close to home for you (I’m in San Diego, so many of my suggestions are further away), but I can give some general guidelines. Make sure the school has a dedicated neuroscience department, with undergraduate focus/research opportunities. When they’re an amalgamation of bio/psych departments, it generally means the school doesn’t quite know what to do with the major, and the quality of the education may be lower. On your coast, I’d consider Duke, Cornell, and MIT for big name privates. I know california is a long way away, but she sounds like a good fit for Caltech (provided she has the stats and math/science background to get in) because it’s a rigorous program with a collaborative atmosphere. A notable exception to the dedicated department rule would be Vanderbilt, because there’s significant research opportunities. Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions!</p>

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<p>shoboemom, it does not have to be muhlenberg that said…unless money is a major issue or your daughter does not want to go away…you must do the right thing and let your child spread her wings and fly. she can always come back home after college. one of the best aspects of college is learning a lot more independence and being a plane flight away starting with all fresh faces around you is a great way to do grow.</p>

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<p>neuromajor, Thank you so much! That does give us a lot to consider. Duke is on our possible list. MIT was her dream school through Jr high, but I think that has shifted. I think it is a very intense school, and even with the right stats, really hard to get into (she likes Wellesley though, in part because of its association with MIT). Vanderbilt seems interesting, not sure about ‘fit’. We definitely have some researching to do.</p>

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<p>Must I? lol I don’t know. The ‘right thing’ for one may not be the ‘right thing’ for another…and sometimes there is more than one possible ‘right’ choice. We absolutely want what is best for her, and there are many factors she (and we) will have to consider when making the college decision.</p>

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<p>shobemom , of course it is (IMO)
btw nova southeastern, in sunny FLORIDA …which is a larger school and is really coming into it’s own has a new neuro immune institute. it may have options for undergrads to get involved.
[Institute</a> for Neuro Immune Medicine | Nova Southeastern University](<a href=“http://www.nova.edu/nim/index.html]Institute”>Institute for Neuro-Immune Medicine | Nova Southeastern University)
I do not know for undergrad if it would be my first choice, it is larger and a heavy commuter school, it does have a fairly big on campus residential population.</p>

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<p>Problem is, each PhD department likely has its own list of “preferred”, “ok”, and “disdained” undergraduate schools, probably based in part on the performance of past graduate students from those undergraduate origins. And they probably are not going to publicly say what those lists are because that could cause a political uproar (and the lists probably change over time).</p>

<p>Also, as noted above, such “rankings” of undergraduate schools are major-specific; overall prestige is likely unimportant compared to how good the major and students in the major are seen by the PhD departments.</p>

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<p>If you have any questions about the Neuroscience program at MIT, I suggest you contact CC member molliebatmit. She graduated from that program and recently finished her PhD in Neuroscience from Harvard. She usually hangs out on the MIT board or you can send her a PM.</p>

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<p>Probably true. But the important point to learn from this is the statement commonly heard here on CC that grad schools don’t care, or that any old college will do just as well as any other, probably isn’t true. Especially not true for high-end PhD programs.</p>

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<p>I’m going to preface this post by saying that, if your daughter hasn’t worked in a lab yet, then she really doesn’t know what she wants to do. There are so many wonderful, exciting things to do in science…and neuroscience is just one small branch of it.</p>

<p>Neuroscience is such a broad discipline that it makes a lot of sense to get solid preparation in the biological and physical sciences. The fact of the matter is that such training can be obtained at almost any school. That being said, a computational neuroscience grad program looks for a slightly different candidate than a cellular/molecular one.</p>

<p>Since others have mentioned UCSD…
At UCSD, the neuroscience grad program accepts students from private and public schools, large universities and small liberal arts colleges. Particularly at UCSD…but I’d venture a guess at most neuroscience grad programs (which are fairly small)…the strength of the undergrad institution is considered along with a host of other factors (GPA, strength of curriculum, research experience, publication record, GRE scores, extracurricular activities, letters of recommendation). Research experience, accompanying letters of recommendation, and publications in peer-reviewed journals carry significant weight in grad school admissions. The admissions committee wants to know that the applicant not only has the ability to be a competent scientist but the motivation to push through rough patches in grad school (and they will occur).</p>

<p>My advice:</p>

<p>Most students your daughter’s age don’t really know what they want to study in college, let alone grad school. She should attend a school that’s a good “fit” for her academically, socially, and financially – an institution that has a strong biology department…but is also strong in other disciplines in case her interests change. It may be beneficial to have an attached/nearby grad school in biology/neuroscience that can offer research opportunities. This way she would have the continuity of working on a research project for one or more years during the academic year. That’s much better than doing a short lab stint in the summer.</p>

<p>Some state flagships (like the UC schools, UMich, UW, UWisc-Madison at Madison) have vibrant research communities. Others…not so much. Some primarily undergrad institutions (PUIs) can provide excellent scientific training with lots of one-on-one time with professors. I have friends on faculty at PUIs who teach and run small labs. The training that undergrads receive at PUIs or LACs can be wonderful.</p>

<p>Which brings me to my final bit of advice…
If your daughter truly has an interest in attending grad school to study neuroscience, she should have the initiative to seek out research opportunities as soon as possible in college. It might make the most sense to do this in the summer between her freshman and sophomore years (applications due in the preceding spring). She should investigate lab research programs at her college and the myriad programs elsewhere. The National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS) at NIH in Bethesda, MD, has an incredible [summer</a> program](<a href=“http://www.ninds.nih.gov/jobs_and_training/summer/]summer”>www.ninds.nih.gov/jobs_and_training/summer/) that I used to be involved with. Levon Parker used to be the head of the program there. He was an incredibly caring, generous guy who put a lot of work into encouraging women and underrepresented minorities to pursue careers in science. Unfortunately, he retired several years ago. :frowning: NIH also offers the
[Summer</a> Internship Program in Biomedical Research](<a href=“http://www.training.nih.gov/programs/sip]Summer”>www.training.nih.gov/programs/sip). There are many great scientists working on the Bethesda campus…and your daughter would be able to check out the Washington, D.C., area during the summer (which is LOTS of fun).</p>

<p>Private institutions also offer research opportunities. The Howard Hughes Medical Institute (HHMI) has something called the [Exceptional</a> Research Opportunities Program (EXROP)](<a href=“http://www.hhmi.org/grants/individuals/exrop.html]Exceptional”>www.hhmi.org/grants/individuals/exrop.html). Through EXROP, undergrads from underrepresented groups get to work with an HHMI investigator over the summer. FYI, the application procedure isn’t open to everyone. College students interested in EXROP must be invited to apply by HHMI investigators at various institutions. If you aren’t familiar with HHMI, the organization funds the best and brightest “stars” in science. HHMI funding is generous and highly competitive. Basically, if your daughter worked with an HHMI scientist and had a strong letter of recommendation from him/her, such a letter would carry great weight in the grad school admissions process.</p>

<p>Of course, discussing all of this is probably waaaaaay more than your daughter needs to know at this point. She’s probably just a high school kid who thinks that the brain and neurons are cool. She might get to college and decide that she wants to go into medicine, East Asian studies, or art history. :smilie:</p>

<p>Hope this helps…</p>

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<p>And perhaps comp sci…</p>

<p>the point is that she should focus on those undergrad colleges that have the neuro thread in her interest. Some are more (soft) psych-focused. some bio-focused, some compsci-focused. (I think Wellesley offers all three tracks.)</p>

<p>btw: Amherst, with the first undergrad program in neuro, is outstanding.</p>

<p>Of course, the obvious downside to a LAC is the limited course offerings; even though they are listed in the catalog, they may only be offered every second or third year.</p>

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<p>I forgot to give you a list of East Coast schools with strong neuroscience programs. They are the “usual suspects”: Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Columbia, MIT, Amherst (LAC), Yale, UPenn, Brown, Duke, and others.</p>

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<p>shoboemom, you’re completely accurate when you say that MIT can be cuthroat. Any of the top bio programs have a tendency to be filled with pre-med students, and consequently are extraordinarily competitive. Bartleby007, according to my friends within the UCSD grad admissions, they absolutely have a short list. It’s Caltech, MIT, Harvey Mudd, Pomona, Harvard, Berkley (the UC’s love stealing students from each other), Swathmore, and Stanford. These are almost entirely based on the strength of the neuroscience programs at each of these schools, minus perhaps Berkley which in and of itself is still a good school. Although every grad program will have its own list, as mentioned, those schools along with others who have great neuroscience reputations tend to be on most admission committee’s short lists. </p>

<p>In terms of location, for your daughter it may be important to let her leave the nest. Florida isn’t exactly considered the hub of the neuroscience community. Country wide hubs would include Boston (MIT obviously leads this push, their program tends to be more computer-y. However, all the hospitals and universities in such a close range does provide numerous research opportunities), San Francisco (UCSF grad school + Berkley + Stanford), San Diego (UCSD + Salk Institute/The Scripps Research Institute/Sanford-Burnham Research institute and “biotech valley” makes San Diego a vibrant neuroscience hub. I am a San Diegan I confess, however I really wanted to get away from home for school, and the strength, intelligence, and collaborative of the community still put UCSD high on my list), and rounding out the list at closest to home would be the research triangle in NC (Duke, UNC Chapel Hill, NC state, thriving research community). </p>

<p>I concur that Brown’s program is exceptional. I’d add Bowdoin for the strength of the program and as a LAC, and Wesleyan to consider for their huge science research endowment and as an exception to the department rule. Of course, any of the other traditional top east coast ivies would be great too, particularly UPenn or Cornell. </p>

<p>Lastly, keep in mind if she has her heart set on a particular grad school, do NOT attend there for undergrad. Remember my comment about student-stealing? I recall hearing on the Berkley tour that they kept expanding their library to a ridiculous size so they could beat Harvard to have the largest library, as Harvard did the same, both wasting their endowments over pride. The top schools tend to do this with students. Perhaps it’s a “grass is greener” mentality. Either way, if she’d want to attend UCSD grad school, she shouldn’t go there for undergrad. It seems paradoxical, but I’m citing this from a variety of college professors in my network. Feel free to PM me with any questions!</p>

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<p>So much great info!<br>
bluebayou, Yes I think she is leaning more toward the psych or perhaps bio side of neurom and she does like the LACs. I’ve just started learning about the issue of limited classes, but then again, I had already heard about that being an issue at the huge state schools. Classes are offered more frequently, but fill quickly.</p>

<p>Bartleby007…Wow. Thank you so much for the insights! Are you in the neuro field? You are right, she hasn’t worked in a lab yet, and I would not be surprised at all if she changed her mind before college, or once she gets started. She has been interested in science in some form for a long time though. It is a field that I really don’t know that much about as far as careers, and what is required to break into the field. I am glad to hear the advice to find good fit with flexibility in degrees in case she changes her focus. I just wasn’t sure how important it would be to pick the right school for neuroscience, as opposed to the right fit for her for the undergrad degree. Ideally, of course, it would be both.</p>

<p>I also appreciate the advice for her to find research opportunities in college. From what I have read on these boards, many kids are finding research in High school, and I just don’t know if that would even be a possibility for my D. Thank you so much for the links! Your input is much appreciated.</p>

<p>coureur, Thank you for the advice on the MIT/neuro contact. It sounds like we may not have to find the best of the best in neuro for undergrad, but someplace that would offer the right experience and has gained a level of respect in the field.</p>

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<p>neuromajor,
You mentioned Scripps, and I wonder if you know anything about Scripps and Max Planck that are in Jupiter, Florida. They share a campus with the honors college of FAU (Florida Atlantic University). I think the school’s relationship with them is fairly new, but growing. FAU is NOT a highly ranked school, but that close association seemed interesting. </p>

<p>I can see the advantage you describe in not going to your desired grad school for undergrad. It does seem a bit backward. I had heard already heard that it doesn’t give you an advantage to have attended for undergrad, but hadn’t considered that it could be a disadvantage. </p>

<p>We will definitely be reading more about all the schools that have been mentioned here. The State schools might be our best deal financially, but I do think that a small or mid size school will be a much better fit for her; somewhere where the professors get to know the tudents and there is a feeling of collaboration.</p>

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<p>I do in fact know about TSRI’s new Florida campus. I’ll be interning with the original campus here, which is one of the most prestigious neuroscience institutes in the country. I can only say great things about TSRI, and I know they moved a solid chunk of their best and brightest neuroscientists out to the new campus, Max included. I could only imagine that the prestige of FAU’s neuroscience program would increase with the presence of TSRI. I’m not sure how far Jupiter is from your location, but if your daughter could get an internship there it would be an invaluable experience (both for her own personal growth and it would undeniably look great on a college application). If you or your daughter would like tips on how to get internships in neuroscience, feel free to contact me. This will be my second internship in high school, the first was in a cognitive neuroscience lab at UCSD which went wonderfully. </p>

<p>I agree that a smaller school with a collaborative environment may be the best fit for your daughter, based off the fact that her interests (which parallel my own) truly seem to be more oriented around learning and making a difference in research science more than a particular pre-professional track. </p>

<p>Addressing some points that have been brought up: yes, the LACs can hit a ceiling. However, many now offer specialty programs in neuroscience with plenty of classes. Others get around the program entirely by entering into consortiums, the Claremont colleges being the most prominent, but Swathmore/Bryn Mawr/Upenn/Haverford’s agreement comes to mind as well. I believe Bowdoin, Bates and Colby share research projects, although their campuses are too far to share classes. As you rightly observed, getting classes as a freshman or sophomore at a flagship state school can be nearly impossible, right at the time your daughter could use them the most to either a) cement her love of neuroscience and reassure her that she’s on the right track or b) determine earlier on that it may not be for her, and have time to switch majors without wasting a year. It is in this respect I see the LACs or maybe a small private winning out for her needs. In particular, the low student:faculty ratios, high number of research opportunities, and overall more collaborative environments seem like they may make the LACs a good fit.</p>

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<p>It does appear that people on these forums tend to write “grad school” when they really mean “professional school” (i.e. for MD, JD, MBA, etc.), rather than PhD programs. The relevance of undergraduate school prestige can vary greatly.</p>