For rising seniors...

Colleges & Universities Princeton University
1

<p>So you just finished junior year. It was a killer, wasn’t it? Now steel yourself for one more semester of hard studying and for a long 10 months going through the college application process. If you have put in your time and have a certain amount of intellectual and personal or athletic or artistic or all of the above capabilities, you will maybe think about applying to Princeton. As an alumna, and now a parent of a member of the great Class of '09 (hooyah!), I would like to give you a couple of Princeton facts to carry with you as you proceed towards April of 2006.</p>

<li>Princeton has the highest per student endowment in the country.</li>
<li>Princeton has the highest alumni loyalty of any university in the country as measured by a) Alumni giving percentage b) Alumni returning to reunions year after year after year.</li>
</ol>

<p>You should of course determine whether Princeton is a fit for you by visiting, looking at the support for your area of academics, talking to friends, asking questions of the students on this forum, all the usual suspects. But remember as you do so that the graduates of Princeton demonstrate their loyalty to the place more than any other alumni in the country. Why are we loyal? We love the school, all the various types of us, men, women, liberal, conservative, arty, math geniuses, future leaders of America, future jugglers, future Nobel prize winners, future mothers, future fathers. You should ask yourself as you go through the process, why do all these people so love this university? </p>

<p>Then you should consider the result of that loyalty; a level of resources available to undergraduates unmatched anywhere else.</p>

<p>Best wishes in your application process for the class of 2010.</p>

<p>Alu</p>

2

<p>You might take a look at the results of this massive survey to track decisions that other top students have made when choosing among elite schools.</p>

<p><a href=“http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf[/url]”>http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

3

<p>The study Byerly posts does of course refer to students choosing before they go to college. The information I posted refers to alumni feelings for the university after they graduate. The preference of 17 and 18 year olds in a 12 month period vs. the loyalty of alumni over the course of their lifetimes. Just a thought. Byerly is so fervent in his posting of the Harvard stats that here on cc you can’t miss the fact the kids making the initial purchse choose the Harvard brand most often. I’m completing the picture by adding what we call in marketing the post-choice preference, or brand loyalty over time.</p>

4

<p>Well, to avoid any distortion of the picture, you should note that Harvard has the nation’s highest graduation rate - a pretty good marker for satisfaction - and that it also has the second highest alumni contribution rate among all universities in the nation, even though nearly 2/3 of its “graduates” are from graduate and professional schools whose primary loyalty may be to their undergaduate institution. </p>

<hr>

<p>Harvard, of course has by far the highest endowment of any educational institution (as large as Yale and Princeton combined) - thanks to the generosity of its loyal alumni.</p>

<p>Herewith, the top 10 as of FY 2004:</p>

<p>1 Harvard University (Cambridge, MA) $22,587,305,000
2 Univ. of Texas System Summary (Austin, TX) $13,832,973,738
3 Yale University (New Haven, CT) $12,740,896,000
4 Princeton University (Princeton, NJ) $9,928,200,000
5 Leland Stanford Junior University (Stanford, CA) $9,922,041,000
6 Univ. of Texas System Administration (Austin, TX) $9,360,113,745
7 Univ of California, System Summary (Oakland, CA) $6,534,086,000
8 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Cambridge, MA) $5,869,800,000
9 Columbia University (New York, NY) $4,493,085,000
10 University of Michigan (Ann Arbor, MI) $4,243,352,775</p>

<hr>

<p>Its alumni receive more Rhodes and Marshall scholarships marking academic distinction than do Yale and Princeton graduates combined.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.mediarelations.ksu.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart.pdf[/url]”>http://www.mediarelations.ksu.edu/WEB/News/NewsReleases/scholarschart.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<hr>

<p>Its graduates fare better in graduate and professional placement than do the graduates of any other university.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/college/feederschools.htm[/url]”>http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/college/feederschools.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<hr>

<p>Nor is it all work and no play at Harvard! Harvard offers more NCAA Division I sports than any other university in the nation, and it won a record 14 Ivy league titles - including rowing, where it just won its third consecutive national title, and football, where the 10-0 Crimson defeated Yale for the fourth (4th) straight year, and Princeton for the ninth (9th!) straight season.</p>

5

<p>Can we please just have a post about Princeton’s merits and not Harvard’s? Harvard is not the end-all-be-all. Those are fine points about Harvard, but they should be on the Harvard board, not the Princeton one…</p>

<p>Good luck to the Class of 2010, and alumother had some great things to say about why our university is one of the finest (if not the finest) in the world. Best wishes, and I hope many of you choose to apply to Princeton next year :)</p>

6

<p>princeton pwns harvard. and thats that.</p>

7

<p>Apparently, not at football. :P</p>

8

<p>Because that’s obviously what’s the most important ;)</p>

9

<p>football shmootball. who watches football anyways! :D</p>

10

<p>The P’ton alums would like to, if the team would only win more often.</p>

<p>Last fall, the Daily Princetonian actually called for the firing of the coach.</p>

<p>SEE: “After sorry stint, time for Hughes to hit the showers.”</p>

<p>“…Beating Harvard and Yale in football is the only desire heard from the general student body at Princeton. Athletic apathy disappears when students envision a bonfire. Hughes is 0-5 against Harvard and 2-3 against Yale. The Yale wins came in his first two seasons when his teams were composed of players recruited by Tosches. Penn is a lesser rival but still one that Princeton cares about. Hughes is 0-5 versus the Quakers. Some of the these big losses to rivals, especially against Harvard and Yale, have been in very close games, but, again, that is where a good coach should excel.”</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/11/17/sports/11472.shtml[/url]”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/archives/2004/11/17/sports/11472.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

11

<p>Graduation rates indicate capacity to endure as much as satisfaction. </p>

<p>Look, here’s what it comes down to. No one in their right mind would say that every year there is an unmistakably worldwide superior group of 2000 college students. There are several times that many who, if you can rank excellence to that level of granularity, are equivalent. So the student pools at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, etc. will be almost identical. Let’s for the sake of argument say that 1% of the kids at H are in some way, defined by university policy of course, superior to 1% of the kids at Y and so on. Is that really going to matter in terms of your peers? </p>

<p>Your peer group will differ somewhat between university number 1 and university number 20. Maybe between number 1 and number 10. But to say that peer groups differ significantly between number 1 and number 2 or 3 is to disparage the student community of the world. I’m right. You know I’m right.</p>

<p>So then, if you have the choice, the only difference is do you like the place? Do you like Yale? Do you like Princeton? Do you like Stanford? Guys, you still get to just like something. It isn’t a winner take all world, despite Byerly’s posts on the economics of choice. It is OK to pick the place you like better. If you like Harvard better, and you want to go to school with kids who like Harvard, go for it. If you like Princeton better, and you want to go to school with other kids who like Princeton better, go for it.</p>

<p>Read through all the posts. Visit the campuses. Talk to the kids. You will know what is right for you if you have trained yourself to pay attention.</p>

<p>Final thought. Why go to Princeton instead of Harvard? Happiness. That is an acceptable criterion.</p>

12

<p>Great advice alumother. I am a member of the class of 2010. Thanks for helping us out.</p>

13

<p>I couldn’t agree more that the thing to do is to visit, and then to pick the place that you like better (assuming that you get in.)</p>

<p>What is annoying, however, are the oft-expressed views of the prior poster and her ilk that even though most applicants who have a choice pick Harvard over Princeton (or any other school) those inclined to prefer Harvard do so for shallow and insubstantial reasons, while those who “fall in love” with Princeton over Harvard are, on the contrary, “sincere” in their passion.</p>

<p>Lets face it: the hundreds of common admits tend to be the “best of the best:” both schools have admitted them and both schools very much want them to attend. They are just as likely to be “sincere” and passionate about their choice whether they pick one school or the other.</p>

<p>It is understandable to have negative feelings about those who have rejected you, but there should be limits to the rationalizing that they are thus not the paragons you thought they were when you admitted them and ardently courted them.</p>

<p>Hard as it may be for you to believe, since its clearly important to you to grasp for some distinguishing characteristic, people who attend and graduate from Harvard are just as “happy” about their choice as anybody who attends Princeton, Penn or Pittsburgh. </p>

<p>Attempting to put down other schools on the basis of some impossible to prove personal quality in which you find them lacking in comparison to your wonderful selves is pathetic, IMHO.</p>

14

<p>BYERLY NO ONE ASKED YOU ABOUT HARVARD! THIS THREAD WAS ABOUT PRINCETON! Why do you feel compelled to mention Harvard when no one asks about Harvard? It’s that perceived arrogance that tarnishes the reputation of a wonderful institution. </p>

<p>You are only playing to the base instincts of a few teens by doing what you are doing, byerly. For the rest of us, you are doing your wonderful alma mater a great disservice.</p>

15

<p>

I said or implied no such thing and I do not have an ilk. Or, if I do, come on gloves off, tell me what it is:).</p>

<p>I just said if you like Harvard and you want to be with kids who like Harvard go to Harvard. If you like Princeton and you want to be with kids who like Princeton go to Princeton. Choosing for happiness if these two schools are your options is a no-lose proposition.</p>

<p>I didn’t even broach possible reasons Princeton might be better…or Harvard might be less than godlike. I just said choose what you want. Perhaps I believe that happiness is a good criterion because I am from a different generation than you;). I should have said that before - '10ers please judge my opinions with a grain of salt based how you all perceive me, do the same for all information you receive. Examine all data with an eye on its source.</p>

16

<p>Rather amusing, Prepster, coming from you, as a Yale person, since you seem to suffer no guilt pangs about migrating to the “Harvard page” to puncture any Crimson balloons you see!</p>

<p>And Alum mother did not hesitate to cross into “enemy territory” to rip Havard and Summers to shreds when the spirit moved her.</p>

<p>The idea that there are “safe zones” where only positive views can be expressed about school X, and any positive views about school y are strictly verboten seems pretty silly. </p>

<p>Kids ought to hear all views, particularly when they are positive views about ANY schools and not attempts to run down the “opposition”, and suggest kids who go there are shallow “prestige whores”, unhappy, unattractive, nerdy, dumb or otherwise inferior.</p>

<p>I will not take the bait, and refuse to slyly slam Alumother on the basis of her age, sex, education background or other possible prejudices, either.</p>

<p>I will continue to restate statistical data which may be of interest to all college applcants.</p>

17

<p>I ripped someone to shreds? Ooh cool. I have to go look. Rhamster, you’re welcome buddy.</p>

18

<p>byerly…those that choose harvard…i dont think happiness is really a top priority lol. ive known many people who have chosen harvard and they really dont give a damn about personal fit or liking the university. they just want the education and the brand name to get into a top graduate school.</p>

<p>now, lets leave this harvard vs princeton. byerly, your witty and snide comments are often funny, but this is a thread to help future princeton ed’ers. if you can please restrain yourself, leave this thread to princeton. you still have a number of other princeton threads on the princeton board to leave your mark.</p>

19

<p>Oh? When have I ever mentioned Yale when Yale was not previously mentioned? I visit both the Princeton and the Harvard pages frequently-I have many friends going to each school. And I think you would be hard pressed to find one example of my being a shameless Yale booster or mentioning Yale when it wasnt already being discussed.</p>

<p>I wont defend Alumn mother for anything she did-but as they say in Sunday school, two wrongs dont make a right. This thread had nothing to do with Harvard-you, yes, you alone, brought Harvard into it. If I were reading a thread about Harvard that Alumn mother crashed with Princeton propoganda, I would say the same thing to her.</p>

20

<p>I can only find one post of mine on the Harvard board, where I said pretty much exactly what I said here. That there are too many great students for Harvard to have a monopoly. No Summers shredding. Perhaps it was on the Parent’s Forum? I admit that I feel I am on neutral ground in the Parent’s Forum. I confess to being kind of excited to be told by B himself I shredded someone:). Must be getting tougher as I get older, sort of like chickens.</p>

<p>I would never go over to the Harvard forum and say bad things about Harvard. There are teenagers there who are thrilled to be accepted. That would be rude. Showing up with data is fine. Making personal comments is not fine. Repeatedly showing up with the same data all the time to make the same point is somewhat annoying but kind of fun to debate.</p>