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Guess we were not successful in avoiding going off on that tangent. And I walked right into it. My bad.</p>
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<p>With some high achieving students, it’s because they need that high critical mass to ensure the academic median the Prof ends up settling on isn’t so low that they’re left bored and underwhelmed. </p>
<p>It’s a serious matter as I’ve known dozens of former HS dropouts with high SATs who did so precisely because their local school districts taught to such a low LCD that they grew frustrated and left. However, upon entering college through a special program, they thrived and leapfrogged over many students who entered through the regular admission process. </p>
<p>However, having a need for a classroom/track/school environment with such a high critical mass of academically achieving students doesn’t necessarily preclude them from making friends who aren’t like them. </p>
<p>At my STEM-centered academically rigorous public magnet, most of my classmates…including yours truly maintained friendships with neighborhood kids who weren’t necessarily high academic achievers. And we’re grateful they, in turn, did likewise with us. Only a tiny minority of arrogant tools have a serious issue with this from what I’ve seen. </p>
<p>Was at a BBQ this past weekend. Most of the bbq guests and host weren’t graduates of elite colleges. Never came up. We cared more that there was good conversation, vibes, sausages, bratwursts, other bbq delicacies, and delicious home-brewed beer. :)</p>
<p>Well, I was sincere about avoiding going off on the tangent mentioned in post #240, when I posted it. I just replied to jym626’s subsequent remark in case my comments in #240 were misinterpreted as being negative about grad school at UC Berkeley or one of the other schools–that is diametrically opposite from my position (and also off the thread topic).</p>
<p>I agree with alh, in post #281. </p>
<p>Also, limiting the discussion to academics, as a professor at a large public research university, I think that there are many ways around the issue raised by cobrat, about the “academic median the Prof ends up settling on.” For example, a course may include deep content that is optional, or that is covered, but not tested. (This would only be a problem for students who are test-motivated, or who want the opportunity to demonstrate to their fellow students how much more they have learned–see “minority of arrogant tools” in post #283). Faculty actually enjoy discussions with students in office hours, when the students want to go further into topics connected with the course.</p>
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But here, I think one would distinguish between judging them as human beings and judging them as musicians.. If your kid was a serious musician, and came home and told you that the orchestra he was playing in was mostly kids who couldn’t play in tune, and who weren’t taking private lessons like he was, etc.–what would you say? Would you let him transfer to a “better” orchestra? I don’t think you’d tell him that the orchestra he’s in now is fine, because the kids are nice, and there are at least a few other good players. Sure, you’d tell him not to say mean things about the other players, but an honest evaluation of their playing isn’t inherently a mean thing.</p>
<p>Apologies if I was unclear in my response (241), quantmech. I agreed with you that grad school classes are a whole other story and not the focus of this thread, but I also made an analogy to the conversation about honors programs/LACs, saying that grad programs are more like LACs with direct access to faculty and small classes. Thats all I meant.</p>
<p>Consolation,
Don’t know your son’s stats, but…</p>
<p>[National</a> Universities That Offer Full Ride Scholarships](<a href=“http://www.thecollegiateblog.org/2012/12/09/national-universities-that-offer-full-ride-scholarship/]National”>Loading...)</p>
<p>Clicked on one at random and got this…</p>
<p><a href=“https://sitecorecms.bsu.edu/Academics/CollegesandDepartments/HonorsCollege/ScholarshipandFellowships/FreshmanHonorsScholarships/WhitingerScholarsProgram.aspx[/url]”>https://sitecorecms.bsu.edu/Academics/CollegesandDepartments/HonorsCollege/ScholarshipandFellowships/FreshmanHonorsScholarships/WhitingerScholarsProgram.aspx</a></p>
<p>When my D was younger, she played on a travel soccer team. She liked some of the girls, and didn’t like others, but they were all good soccer players. They got some good coaching, and learned a lot of skills. When the team began to eat our lives, and she decided that soccer wasn’t a priority, she dropped down to a rec team. There were several good players on the team, but most of them weren’t nearly as skilled as the ones on the travel team. My daughter liked some of them, and not others. But her soccer skills did not really improve on the rec team. First of all, there simply was not the opportunity to build good teamwork skills, because many of the girls just couldn’t do it. Also, the play even in games wasn’t that challenging, and the motivation to win wasn’t that strong, so even the best players on the team weren’t stretched that much. It was “dispiriting” in terms of improving in soccer, although she enjoyed it and didn’t really regret changing teams. But for somebody devoted to soccer, who wanted to play hard and compete and improve, and who was already really good, it would have been a bad fit.</p>
<p>Hunt: In my perfect world, all students have the opportunity to maximize their abilities. So of course if I had a stellar musician as a child, I would want that child in the “best” orchestra for the opportunity to make the most of natural gifts. It seems to me working relationships with others in your area of interest (academics, music, athletics) are probably necessary to make the most of the natural gifts.Then friendships with musicians of comparable ability and interest would be an almost unavoidable serendipity imo. </p>
<p>I know nothing about athletics. Is it possible for someone with a natural ability for soccer, someone with a potential to be the best soccer player of the generation, to be damaged by not playing with comparable players? Does that individual need to be on an appropriate team and have appropriate coaching to realize her potential?</p>
<p>Is that soccer player disadvantaged by not having the absolute best coaching available?</p>
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<p>Well, that really helps our first-semester freshman – NOT.</p>
<p>We aren’t talking about the classroom, though, QM! We’re talking about how most freshmen meet others – through dorm events, the cafeteria, and the like. </p>
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<p>Yes, the existence of honors colleges proves my VERY POINT – that state flagships weren’t necessarily as appealing as they wanted to be to the very strong students – so they said - we’ll create an honors dorm, etc. so you can be in an environment with a thicker concentration of the smart / serious students than what is found in the bulk of our university.</p>
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<p>Oh. God. No. A little piece of me just died upon reading this. Please don’t tell me that in order to find a super-smart, ambitious, academically-inclined people, I need to go join the Tolkien society, or play Dungeons & Dragons, or become a Trekkie, or god-forbid-what-else. This is precisely <em>not</em> what I’m talking about.</p>
<p>None of my examples are intended as “have to” or “need to” examples.</p>
<p>I am really glad the smart kids let me sit at their table in the high school cafeteria. No joke. In college, I just crashed their classes.</p>
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I think the answer is “yes.” While occasionally somebody may become an Olympic runner by running up and down mountains all alone with rocks in his pockets, that’s not how most top athletes get there, in any sport.</p>
<p>I agree that my suggestions about the higher-level math or physics courses, or Chaucer, or Milton, or (Intellectual History of Russia or Existentialism or Epistemology) do not help a typical incoming freshman. I am addressing the situation of someone who might think that he/she has no safeties, and who is in the academically quite strong category. I believe the suggestion is applicable to such a student.</p>
<p>I met my spouse in chemistry lab. Aside from the people who lived near me in the dorm, I met most of my friends in classes. They were just as good friends as the friends one meets in dorms, the cafeteria . . .</p>
<p>In several state flagships, the honors dorm is a more recent creation than honors courses or the honors college. I am not particularly in favor of honors dorms, but for students who want a high concentration of like-minded students as well as reasonable numbers of such students, I suppose they fit the bill.</p>
<p>Another suggestion for finding like-minded friends: First, look around for someone who looks like Sheldon Cooper . . .</p>
<p>From the musician/orchestra example:</p>
<p>I think we’d all agree that the best situation for a talented musician would be to play in an orchestra with other talented musicians. But OP was essentially asking whether or not the talented musician should only audition for first rate symphony orchestras, knowing that there is a chance that they will not get a spot in any of them. And if they do not get in to any of the orchestras for which they audition, there will be no opportunity to play in any orchestra for a year.</p>
<p>Or course they can continue to take lessons and practice, but they would miss out on a year of playing in an orchestra. Are they better off only auditioning for first rate symphony orchestras, knowing that this might mean that there is a chance they won’t get a spot in any of them? I think they would be better off auditioning for a spot at a safety orchestra. If they are denied a spot in all the first rate symphony orchestras they audition for, at least they will have a chance to play in an orchestra, albeit one where most of the musicians are below their level.</p>
<p>For the soccer analogy, granted that playing on a recreational team may not advance one’s soccer skills, but not playing soccer on any team for a year would almost certainly cause those skills to atrophy to some extent.</p>
<p>In the same way, having absolutely no safety schools for the applicant in the OP raises the risk that they will have to take a gap year. Yes, they can read on their own, take massive on line courses, etc. But that is not the same as attending a college or university, even one where many students are not at their level. Only the family involved can tell whether a year of not attending any college is better than attending a college which is below their standard.</p>
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<p>Too narrow. I’d loved classmates who can discuss, debate, and dissect the complexities of Philosophers like Hegel, merits of different computer hardware/software architectures, world historical/political events, socio-political systems/institutions, literary works, merits of different musical genres/subgenres, physics of flight, chemical properties of various elements, art/art history etc in an interesting manner. </p>
<p>Bonus points if they can turn them into jokes non-specialists could appreciate. :)</p>
<p>Well, for some of us, it was really nice just to be able to walk out on our dorm floors or whatever other unstructured socializing there was, and feel good that there was a high probability of being “among our tribe” versus having to hide our smarts, our enthusiasm for academics, and so forth, or having to social-engineer it through carefully selecting potential friends from certain classes.</p>
<p>Double bonus points if you dont post viking, middle ages or other youtube links.</p>