<p>sevmom - EXACTLY!!!</p>
<p>How “thick” a layer of smart peers does any one person need? Maybe a couple in each class? Even in elective subjects where the student might be stretching him/herself outside of his/her academic comfort zone? Socially, does it matter at all? (I am not talking about close friendships, but rather peers one would hang out with at dorm or frat parties or campus events.)</p>
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Here’s where people may just value different things. I think it’s very valuable to have smart peers in any class that involves much discussion and interaction with the professor. Even in a lecture class, it may affect what the lecturer feels he or she can cover. And to me, it matters a lot socially–to others, it may not.</p>
<p>“Of course, not all flagships are created equal. The flagship in my state is pretty good, and has a good honors program. 21% of students scored over 200 on the CR section of the SAT.”</p>
<p>Over 200? Not sure I understand. That would be a REALLY low score.</p>
<p>“At some highly selective schools, however, that number is over 75%. Does this mean the students at the flagship are a bunch of drooling morons? No, they’re all capable students, and some of them are super-smart. But there are a lot of them that won’t be academically competitive with those kids at the super-selective schools.”</p>
<p>Yes, but a lot of them WILL be academically competitive with those kids at the super-selective schools.</p>
<p>“The question is, to what extent, if any, do they hold back the super-smart kids who are at the flagship. If they don’t hold them back at all, it is (in my opinion) because the flagship segregates them in special honors classes.”</p>
<p>Or because the super-smart kids have “placed out” of the classes that some others will be in. Most advanced (AP Scholars) students won’t be taking most of the freshman core curriculum and will move on to advanced courses of study very quickly. That will leave more room in their schedule for areas that truly interest them. So, you’re not necessarily in with SMARTER kids, but at the very least, students who are more advanced in their studies. Students who have more ground to make up won’t have that luxury. This is true whether the kid is in honors or not. Honors usually just puts you in with that elite set of high minds that some seem to value so much. I am not denying the value of “iron sharpening iron”.</p>
<p>“And if they do this, what are the supporters of the flagships so self-righteous about? Those kids aren’t rubbing shoulders with the lesser mortals, either.”</p>
<p>This supporter of a flagship doesn’t think of herself as self-righteous. I just take exception to flagships, in general, being characterized as a bastion for primarily people who don’t make the grade. It’s not always the case. And my D, who is at a small regional state college (not a flagship) is in honors. She rubs shoulders with brilliant people, people who are by no means brilliant, people from all walks of life and all backgrounds. Not all classes are honors classes if you’re in honors. People from all backgrounds are there on campus, you see them, you talk to them, you eat lunch with them, you go out on Friday night with them, if you want to. She has all different kinds of friends.</p>
<p>Hunt, I’m not saying it doesn’t matter. In fact, I think it matters a lot. But not every smart person is extroverted enough to speak up in class. Some smart people don’t want to act geeky or seem intellectually pretentious outside of class. You could have a class of 20 people–at any school–in which only four or five students routinely engage in discussion with the professor. That doesn’t mean the rest of the kids are dumb. Likewise, there are genius-level people who are socially awkward and barely say a word at parties. I think people are making much ado about (almost) nothing here.</p>
<p>To me, it matters a lot socially too. In high school, I had relatively few close friends – I wasn’t a social pariah or anything, but most kids were just interested in superficial things and ways of relating to the world that weren’t of interest to me. In college, I was able to blossom and have more and deeper friendships – which have now lasted for 25+ years. I think there was a world in difference socially in terms of being in a public high school where the pool of super-smart kids was relatively thin versus being at an elite college where the pool was thick. Where it was ok, and even cool, to have academic interests. Where you weren’t a nerd just for liking a particular subject and wanting to go deeper in it. So why would that be any different if you’re comparing an average state flagship where the pool is relatively thin versus an elite college? No one is saying that the kids at the average state flagship are mouth-breathers who can’t add 2+2 or that they are inferior human beings or anything, so don’t go there.</p>
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<p>And such kids will likely do better if they feel that most of their peers will appreciate their academic interests, which is kind of my point.</p>
<p>Perhaps. Or they may just want to feel “normal.” And I’m sure we both know first-hand that mouth-breathers can be found anywhere, even prestigious universities. :)</p>
<p>When my S was in HS, they had a job shadowing requirement. He shadowed his GC, who happened to have a PhD in Philosophy from Cambridge and was teaching philosophy at a local university. S was very interested in philosophy at the time, and had taken several philosophy courses at CTY. He observed that there was a certain point in the discussion in the classes he sat in on at which the students could no longer follow the professor. He was, I think, 15. Can one seriously maintain that someone like him should go to a school of that type and LIKE it? Not just someone as smart as he is, but more to the point someone with his particular set of interests and intellectual bent. The school in question might be a perfectly reasonable safety for a very smart person interested in nursing, for example. </p>
<p>Because it seems to me that that is what some of you are demanding. Moreover, some go on to demand that kids LIKE the preceding 12 years of being forced to sit in classes that bore them stiff, and say that any parent who says that their very capable child has just as much right to a suitable education as a child who is intellectually handicapped is a snob and a poseur. No wonder many people in that situation end up home schooling.</p>
<p>The fact is that special ed is mandated by the federal government, and therefore it is provided. Gifted education, or even differentiation in the classroom, is not. It is a myth that very gifted kids will do just fine no matter what. In fact, if not accommodated, they have a high rate of behavior problems, dropping out, and so forth.</p>
<p>UCB, in answer to your question about the schools on the guaranteed-aid list, most of them leave over $10K per year to be covered by the family. When the family income is about $30K per year, that is not feasible. There are a few where the residual cost is under $5K, which might be possible if the student can cover it with Perkins loans. But I have the strong suspicion that Perkins loans are already accounted for in those figures.</p>
<p>Sheldon prefers a room full of Sheldon’s … got it ;)</p>
<p>A lot of kids who go to CTY in the summer say that it is the first time they ever felt that they could be themselves without fear. </p>
<p>But by all means, let’s make fun of them.</p>
<p>To throw a curve ball to the discussion…</p>
<p>My DD applied to a secondary flagship public as a safety. It turns out she was accepted to an Ivy and other Top 20 schools, but her safety really wanted her. They put together a tremendous package (Direct admission to Med school, Full-ride plus stipend, Honors college with new dorm, guaranteed research opportunities, and her favorite - an iPad).</p>
<p>She ended up with a difficult decision that went down to the wire. She finally decided on April 29 to attend “Highly Selective U” but was very close to picking her safety.</p>
<p>Just because a Safety is not as desirable at the beginning of the process, does not mean that a school won’t become more appealing as you investigate further.</p>
<p>
There have been several posts about students without safeties, but none that mentioned the reasons listed above. Instead it often related to a poor perception of chance of rejection. For example, applying to only 1 or 2 selective schools because the student assumed he’d be accepted at those selective schools. </p>
<p>There is also a group that doesn’t have true safeties because something on their app makes the chance of acceptance at expected safeties far from near certain. For example, there was a poster on CC who was rejected everyone that had an essay, which talked about idolizing Hitler as a kid. Others might have LOR comments that were bad enough to keep them out of safeties or things like disciplinary/criminal issues on their records.</p>
<p>Then there is the group that is extremely weak academically (barely passed HS), such that it’s difficult to find a 4-yr college that would qualify as a safety, particularly if limiting search to near by areas.</p>
<p>However, I’ve yet to hear about anyone who didn’t apply to safeties because the safeties didn’t have enough high achieving students.</p>
<p>I think Hunt meant 700, not 200, knowing the school to which he’s referring. :)</p>
<h1>90: We are really only talking about worst-case scenarios here, in the unlikely event that a really qualified kid has to choose from lesser options–not that the optimal situation is anything other than a school where the student is surrounded by like-minded peers.</h1>
<p>Obviously, there is a greater distance between "highly regarded first choice"and “100% safety” for kids at the top of the admissions pool. I get why a kid who has worked his/her butt off in high school and achieved at a high level would want to spend less time on the safety list than on polishing applications for the most competitive schools, and that he or she would not even want to imagine a scenario that involves having to attend a state flagship, directional or regional private college. But it IS a life lesson to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. And a positive attitude, in my experience, leads to positive outcomes.</p>
<p>This safety school thing is way over rated. I said it back then and saying it now.</p>
<p>Dad II - and the trapeze artists thinks the net is way over rated - until his partner’s grip slips.</p>
<p>Apparently you haven’t had to deal with an 18-year old who is dealing with multiple rejection letters and no clear path following graduation (not my kids, but their friends).</p>
<p>Yes… If you are a teenager, with top grades, stunning extra curriculars and rich parents who can pay 100% of your tuition and make large donations to some ivy league University to help grease the wheels of your application then you do not need a safety school and don’t have to worry about rubbing shoulders with your “intellectual inferiors”.</p>
<p>For everyone else it is probably better to just take the time to fill out a couple applications for your local state college and maybe a few regional schools. Going to a “2nd class school” is better than no school.</p>
<p>I really understand that some students would want to be at a school wherein almost everyone is smart, hard-working, and high-achieving. (For many of us, high school was a nightmare: four years of being stuck with people who actively try to make your life miserable because you’re a nerd who likes school and they are, well, teenagers.) Sometimes, it’s nice to not stand out, and there is also a very valuable lesson in being average, not the smartest: you see how many ridiculously talented people there are in the world. </p>
<p>But there’s a big gulf between having a very strong preference for a school full of smart, high-achieving students, and outright not even applying to the local State U or a second-tier liberal arts school that offers merit money.</p>
<p>My DD applied to four schools that were viewed as safety schools. She applied to one reach.</p>
<p>There are tons of smaller colleges that are not Amherst, Williams, Bates, etc. that are very worthy of consideration and can provide these top students with a very fine education. In fact theses schools sometimes attract these excellent students because of the significant merit aid they can get there.</p>
<p>Most flagship universities have honors colleges which make the large university a smaller experience. There are plenty of top students at these schools as well.</p>