Foreign language certification in lieu of AP exam

[Mumfromca]

My kids are heritage speakers of a language that is as far away from English as Greek is (different alphabet as well). We put some effort in teaching them how to read and write in this heritage language as well. Unlike you, we were very enthusiastic about our kids learning another language in school as we consider languages a portal to other cultures, art, people, ways of life, and possibly, more interesting life experiences. Kids at this age absorb foreign languages like sponges, and I can’t believe that your daughter would dislike FL classes that much. Is it possible that she dislikes Greek Saturday school because it is on Saturday and she is forced to do it? Maybe, she would like FL language in school where she gets to do it with her friends (just speculating here)

We signed our kids for Spanish as this is the language spoken by the most people in the world. My kids THRIVED in these classes. We also send them to monthly Spanish summer camps in Spain to experience the culture, and they loved it (they grew up privileged, I know).

My daughter, who is good at languages, ended up taking AP Spanish Literature (5), got numerous medals at the National Spanish Examination (which is specifically for non-native speakers) up to level 6, organized a HS book club in Spanish, and went to Costa Rica with Amigos. She got into two Ivies and Stanford. Now is contemplating working for a year in the Madrid’s office of her company.

My son, who dislikes memorizing and is not good at languages, took AP Spanish Language (5) and got multiple medals from the National Spanish examination up to level 4. As a sophomore in Stanford, he took a couple of Spanish language classes where he gets to volunteer with disadvantaged kids in the area speaking Spanish, and is applying for a quarter abroad next fall in Madrid. He studies CS, btw

So, 1) it is my experience and belief that learning foreign languages is enormously enriching and gratifying for the opportunities to travel and experience the world. I am sure Latin is a lot of fun but, for my kids, a modern language was better.

2. trying to smooth the path of a child and remove the challenges is a natural instinct as a parent but not always a good strategy for their development. Middle and HS education should be as broad as possible and not pre-professional. This is why colleges want kids to learn FL and not engineering in HS.

3. My kids outperformed their native Spanish speaker friends and this was never an issue.

[Momofthree24]

@MYOS1634

Highly selective expect applicants to reach Level 4 in a foreign language - that can mean being done in 11th grade, leaving space for doubling up in a class of interest. Students do NOT need to get an AP in every core subject and for foreign language Level 4 is the expectation at highly selective universities.

OP, this point has been made over and over in this thread. In five years, IF your child wants to apply to selective universities and you have not followed the advice given here, your child will be at a disadvantage. Either start a new language in 8th grade or in high school.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

@Mumfromca

my experience and belief that learning foreign languages is enormously enriching and gratifying for the opportunities to travel and experience the world. I am sure Latin is a lot of fun but, for my kids, a modern language was better.

There is no doubt a modern language will be better for actually talking to people, and that is indeed worth considering.

But I do want to note that choosing Latin can have purposes outside of just being fun. At least often, Latin in High School is almost like a Classics program too. You learn history, and literature, and so on. And then when traveling, you can get a lot more out of relevant historical sites, museums, and so on–which of course are all over due to how far Latin culture ultimately spread, and the role the language played even after the fall of the Roman Empire. In college, Latin kids sometimes then do great related study abroad programs, even if they are not actually going into Classics. And so on.

Again, I don’t mean to suggest this is equivalent to what you get out of a modern language. But I think they are all potentially enriching in their own ways.

[BKSquared]

@panos

Competitive colleges will expect that my D goes all the way until the maximum level offered by our school, and not dropping out the language at 11/12 grade to pick some other elective

Not an accurate assumption. My D only took Spanish to level 3 and my S finished Spanish L4 junior year and did not take L5. They both were accepted at T20’s.

As an aside, Spanish is an incredibly practical language to learn. Both kids worked in restaurants as summer jobs in HS, and the Spanish came in handy.

[trops]

I’m late to this thread but here is our experience. My kids grew up bilingually with a heritage language for which an AP exam exists but that is not taught in our school district. So with some wrangling and pushing with our school district they might have gotten out of the FL requirement. This actually never crossed my mind, because I thought learning Spanish in the US is so important these days that I wanted them to take it in HS (no middle school FL instruction in our district).

Yes, they were/are in class with native Spanish speakers and it makes absolutely no difference. In my humble experience FL instruction in the US is not of great quality and so it was/is an easy A for my kids in a class they don’t need to spend much time on.

I also think that for kids who already grew up with another language additional languages come more easily. Anecdote: in my current HS sophomore’s Spanish class there are 3 kids that grew up bi-lingually with a language that is not Spanish, my son with another European language and two Arab speakers. They are the best students in the class. And, more anecdote, I took five years of Latin in MS and HS and after the first two years which were fun, I saw it as the biggest waste of time (but that is all personal preference of course)

[panos]

@Alqbamine32

Has she enjoyed learning Greek or does she dislike that as well.

She didn’t enjoy it a lot either mainly because this has been a Saturday school (similar to the examples you wrote about other weekend language schools). The only language that she seemed to be somewhat interested in is ASL, but I think someone mentioned that ASL gets very hard in the upper levels.

Also, my use of the “brainwashing” term might be too strong, but the point remains the same, that I would have to “convince” her that taking yet another FL is something that she needs to do just to have a good chance in a competitive college application.

@MYOS1634

So, actual choices that will be acceptable to highly selective universities:

• test into 4th or 5th semester Modern Greek at a college and take through college level 6.

Thanks for your detailed reply. Isn’t this first choice inconsistent on what you say about what counts as “foreign” language though?

@momsearcheng

Frankly, all my kids gave up on French in 9th grade. If your kid is not interested in humanity majors even 2 years of FL will work for many schools. Engineering schools will focus on Math, Chem, Physics and CS. So relax, 2 years of Latin plus seal of biliteracy in Greek plus ton of STEM classes with good GPA and your daughter will land in a right place.

I thought that “giving up” a language in high school is a red flag no? Also, isn’t the FL requirement universal for top universities?

@BKSquared

Not an accurate assumption. My D only took Spanish to level 3 and my S finished Spanish L4 junior year and did not take L5. They both were accepted at T20’s.

I guess that is an answer for the above question. So say my D starts FL X at HS and goes until L3 in 11th grade, then doubles up on a core class in 12th grade, according to your case this is ok for T20 but others here say it’s not ok…?

[BKSquared]

Depends on the college. Some, but not all want to see up to L4. Even the ones that want to see L4 may be fine with L3 if there is enough rigor in the rest of the transcript. In holistic admissions, “checking all the boxes” doesn’t necessarily get you in, failing to check all the boxes also doesn’t mean you won’t get in.

[tamagotchi]

@panos

So say my D starts FL X at HS and goes until L3 in 11th grade, then doubles up on a core class in 12th grade, according to your case this is ok for T20 but others here say it’s not ok…?

Anecdotally, we knew kids at our HS who took FL 1-3 and then dropped it in 12th grade to add another elective, and had success with elite college admissions… but they were already very strong students with strong ECs and all the other “boxes checked” in their academic portfolios. In any case, whether to continue FL as a senior is a decision your D can make in junior year.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

@panos

according to your case this is ok for T20 but others here say it’s not ok…?

Individual colleges definitely vary on exactly what they recommend, and for some it varies by major or subdivision.

I think the fairest point is planning to do four years in all the core areas is the safest bet because that will more than satisfy most recommendations. But, if you have good reasons for varying from that in specific cases, there very likely will be highly selective colleges that are fine with that.

The question is then what is a good reason? Well, if you are a STEM kid and really want to take both a second level of Physics and Chem but the only way to do that at your HS is only take three years of History/Social-Sciences or Languages–OK, that might be fine with many colleges. Or if you are a performing arts kid and at your HS doing four years of performing arts means it will be hard to do four years of all the cores, OK, that might be fine too.

But suppose you are not really in such a situation. I think what you want to avoid, at least for the most selective colleges, is the appearance you are dodging challenging core classes to take easy-for-you electives instead–including APs, some of which do not necessarily have the greatest reputation.

And you might wonder how they would know the difference, but they can get help on that from school profiles, counselor reports, and even just looking at other applicants. If, say, it is obvious to them your HS is structured to allow kids to do four years in all the cores plus significant elective depth in specific areas of interest, well, then they might not be so receptive to unexplained variations from that approach.

So as usual, there are not going to be any hard rules. And of course all sorts of kids are going to “break” even the soft rules in some way, and still get admitted to the most selective colleges because they had other great things going for them.

But I do think if the true reason you don’t want to take four years in a core subject is simply that you don’t want the challenge–that is a potential problem, and it might come through in some way to the most selective colleges.

[DramaMama2021]

@panos

but the point remains the same, that I would have to “convince” her that taking yet another FL is something that she needs to do just to have a good chance in a competitive college application.

This quote gives me pause. Is your D intent on being competitive for the “top schools” you keep mentioning? If so, I wouldn’t expect you’d have to convince her to take another FL. The kids I know who are shooting for the most selective schools are highly motivated to do whatever they think will create the most competitive application.

And to be clear, it is perfectly okay to find one’s best fit outside of those highly rejective schools. There are many, many excellent and academically challenging schools outside the T20. It may be to your benefit to educate both yourself and your D on some of those schools where the FL requirements are more lenient than what the T10 may be expecting. The posters here who have mentioned their kids only taking 2 years of high school FL have happy and successful students, even though they may not have targeted the ivy+ schools.

I could be completely off-base and if so, please forgive the observation. But I fear you may be concentrating on the wrong thing.

[TonyGrace]

@panos

but the point remains the same, that I would have to “convince” her that taking yet another FL is something that she needs to do just to have a good chance in a competitive college application.

The way to view it is that there are 5 Core Subjects and FL is one of them. Its not really an elective. For the most part, colleges expect you to take a class in each of these areas (English, Math, Science, Social Studies/History and FL) every year.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

Yeah, I think it is great if kids eventually think things like, “If Fancy College wants me to do a bunch of things I don’t like and don’t value, then Fancy College is not for me. Which is fine, because Powerhouse College wants kids exactly like me, so I will happily go to Powerhouse College instead.”

I actually remain somewhat shocked by the fact that when I started re-learning about college admissions as a parent, I found out there are so many kids I see who clearly struck me as Powerhouse College sort of kids, and yet they are under all this pressure to try to get into a Fancy College instead.

It makes no sense to me–they don’t need to go to a Fancy College, I really don’t even see why they want to go to a Fancy College instead of a Powerhouse College given their stated interests, but apparently they are just convinced that everyone should want to go to the Fanciest college they can get into.

Anyway, she is only in seventh grade, so none of this needs to be decided now. But if this kid turns out to be a Powerhouse College sort of kid, I really hope she acquires the wisdom to understand that is exactly the sort of college she should choose.

[momsearcheng]

In our school system FL and geometry are considered HS classes and go on final HS transcript even when are taken in MS. 2 out of 3 took 3 years of language (2 years in MS.) My kids did not apply and were not intrested in Ivies or Stanford at all. 2 are STEM. One is premed.
Oldest is at Gatech and was accepted to Umich, Gatech, Case, CMU, UMD.
Premed one was looking for smaller schools and was hunting for merit money. She was accepted to URochester, URichmond and bunch of other good LACS. Our issue was money and not FL rigor.

[ucbalumnus]

@TonyGrace

For the most part, colleges expect you to take a class in each of these areas (English, Math, Science, Social Studies/History and FL) every year.

If you mean the most selective colleges. Moderately selective colleges may be satisfied with 2-3 years in some or all of the 5 core subjects other than English. Some may be satisfied with proven proficiency in FL (though what constitutes such proof varies and may be hard to get for an uncommon language). But depending on the latter can be risky if all of the possible colleges are not checked on the subject first.

Generally, 4 in each of 5 cores plus 1 of art will cover the widest range of colleges. (Or math and FL to the highest level available if that is completed in <4 years.)

[momsearcheng]

I do not agree. Some kids are hating Math, others hate Chemistry and some are not into languages. Actually my oldest was initially very enthusiastic about French but then totally lost interest.
Here is a hint. Many STEM kids hate pure memorization = learning language. I was Math major for undergrad. I hated any form of memorization. As strange as it sounds deriving some formulas on tests was easier for me than memorizing them…
Avoiding something that you hate and capitalizing on something that you are good at is not weakness. It is smart way to navigate your life.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

@momsearcheng

Avoiding something that you hate and capitalizing on something that you are good at is not weakness. It is smart way to navigate your life.

I completely agree! But depending on what exactly that means for a given kid, it may mean they are not maximally competitive for certain sorts of highly selective colleges.

But observing that is not intended to imply such kids are weak, any less smart, or so on. It just may mean those particular colleges are not a good fit for them.

[MYOS1634]

@panos

Thanks for your detailed reply. Isn’t this first choice inconsistent on what you say about what counts as “foreign” language though?

No, because taking a couple post-AP courses with advanced college students would indicate willingness to challenge yourself and if she got a B or A would also indicate academic excellence, critical thinking, etc., beyond simply using her home language as a “foreign” language. Which do you think would be most impressive if your child went back to Greece next year: taking 8th grade English in a Greek school, or taking 1st year Apolytirion Greek Language and Literature?
The goal isn’t fluency per se (unless students want that - AP is AR from fluent at merely B1) but rather reaching a level demonstrating critical thinking, cultural awareness, willingness to challenge yourself, etc.
The bigger issue would be finding a college teaching 4th 5th 6th semester Modern Greek courses (especially if you’d need it online).
Another benefit is that she could srop Saturday school and use her time for activities she enjoys.

The alternative is reaching Level 4 in a Foreign-to-her language (if she’s aiming for Top 40 univeesitiesand Top 30 LACs).

[TonyGrace]

@ucbalumnus

If you mean the most selective colleges.

Yes. Isn’t this the context here? If not, my misunderstanding.

@momsearcheng

pure memorization = learning language

Properly taught, I don’t think it feels like that at all.

@NiceUnparticularMan

But depending on what exactly that means for a given kid, it may mean they are not maximally competitive for certain sorts of highly selective colleges.

Like everything, its about context. However, I think the issue is boxing a young student out of possibilities when they are so young. Its one thing to decide Jr year that you are dropping a class bc “you are not going to apply to Harvard anyway.” Not being able to because you didn’t leave your options open in 9th grade is completely different.

[thumper1]

@panos

I would have to “convince” her that taking yet another FL is something that she needs to do just to have a good chance in a competitive college application.

Well…start convincing…because it is.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

This gets very personal, but I try to think in terms of individualized intellectual and creative development and not specific college admissions. Including because I do not think any colleges are right for all kids.

That said, I do believe in well-rounded educations and exploration of interests, so that somewhat aligns with how these particular colleges think. But I also believe in increasing earned autonomy during childhood, and I don’t think kids all mature in the same ways at the same times.

So to me, keeping Harvard open as a viable application option as long as possible is not a goal, because I don’t see Harvard as a necessary goal for all or indeed most kids. But I do appreciate there are complex decisions parents have to make when it comes to young kids who say they don’t want to do something because they think they won’t like it. And I think how to deal with that really depends on the kid.

That said, if this kid is saying she wants that option, then you have to make it clear to her how to best do that.