Foreign Language: # of Years vs. Level

Applying to College
41

@MYOS1634 I am not suggesting level N = N years of FL, and but I have seen it provided as answers, hence I asked where it came from, and the only confirmed information was from UC, hence hardly an indication of “At most colleges” In fact, I can’t find any, hence I asked where those colleges are…

I am not saying they do not take students who have less then the recommended number of FL but achieve the highest level available (I would assume they take the holistic approach), but what about those who only go to level 3 in 10th grade, and have no interest to go above level 3? I am just asking where are the colleges that considered level 3 = 3 years of FL. I am not asking about AP, honor, or the highest level available…

@lookingforward where did you get the college level 1 = 2 years of high school? I was referring the response #1 of this thread and the FAQ http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/college-admissions/1802227-faq-foreign-language-p1.html

I would say it is, in general, risky to generalize.

42

Yes, stopping at level 3 in 10th grade when applying for a highly selective college (which expects level 4 or AP) and when the school offers level 4 would be disadvantageous. It’s a bit like stopping at algebra2 and not going for pre-calculus because you don’t like math. There is, however, no obligation to take calculus or AP foreign language, even for single digit acceptance colleges.

As I said, the rule about ’ level reached’ applies to all top colleges (about 110 I’m sure of). We can’t list the colleges for you because there are over a hundred of them.
The variations aren’t college-related but student-related (coming from a lower performing/poorly funded school, lived abroad, heritage speaker in one language, math prodigy, Intel winner, Olympian… ).

The rule about dual enrollment varies for the second and third semester due to college policy, but college level 1= 2 high school levels is pretty constant.
(just as often, but not as constantly, 6th grade language +7th grade language = level 1 in high school. The pace and expectations change when you go from one level of school to the next. This is made clear by the fact a middle school algebra or foreign language class will be classified as ‘high school’ level.)
I haven’t ‘seen’ it anywhere, I just know it from experience. If you want to convince your guidance counselor, email colleges asking precisely if stopping in the 10th grade after reaching level 3 would be competitive or if taking level 4 in high school would be better, and whether taking a local college’s level 3 course would be considere sufficient to be competitive.

Also, keep in mind that most colleges have foreign language graduation requirements, with freshman placement either based on hs level reached or based on a placement test.
This requirement varies - you can compare Amherst (zero), Williams (no foreign language requirement, but 3 required courses in arts/humanities and one cultural diversity class), Stanford (requirement waived for AP score or 630-640 on sat2, otherwise up to three quarters of a 4-5credit class.), Yale (AP +1 or up to 5) , or Tufts (up to 6 or two levels above AP or AP+ a set of prescribed courses.) The most common among top colleges tends to be a requirement of college level 3 or 4 but as the examples above show, it can vary widely. You can check the college catalog with your child if that’s a concern.

It should tell you something that when speaking about highly selective colleges most people here assumed AP :slight_smile: even though your original question stated ‘three years’.

43

It still seems there’s an attempt to generalize. The need for the full 4 years or AP will depend on the individual, just as the math expected depends on the major. I’m going to agree any poster utterly confused by this thread check with their GC, if highly experienced, or contact the college. Several of us have conflicting perspectives.

But phrase the question more precisely, if possible, so you don’t get a generalized answer back.

44

@MYOS1634 there are over a hundred of those colleges, you can’t provide me the names of a few (besides the UC)? and now it is not college related by student related ?
probably someone should revise the FAQ

BTW, ask the college directly was exactly my point as besides UC, I haven’t seen you point to any colleges’ web site on say level N counts as N years.

45

Because it’s well known. :slight_smile:
Ucb created the FAQ because the question was recurring so I suppose colleges could be clearer but guidance counselors who know what they’re doing should know that, it’s very basic. I understand that many public school gc 's aren’t that good, though. That’s why, I suppose, you need specific proof to show the gc?

I don’t know what colleges you’re interested in and don’t have time to list all one hundred of them, but if you want random colleges to show your gc that level reached is what matters in math and foreign language:
Email Hamilton, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Tufts, Amherst, Middlebury, Haverford, Mount Holyoke, Smith, Macalester, Dickinson, St Olaf, Grinnell, Lewis and Clark, Hendrix, Davison, Emory. Being 'competitive’is what you need to know. And if your child is on the Junior Olympics team or will publish research in Neuroscience by all means add that.

The “level reached” applies to all of them. (IE., if you had level 3 in 10th grade, you have completed three years of the admission requirement, not two; of you had AP foreign language in 11th grade, you have completed level 4+ of the admission requirement, not three.) if by happenstance you email one of the 100 colleges and they tell you differently please post their name and complete reply here as this would constitute a big change in a longstanding policy.
As you already acknowledged, individual circumstances are taken into account. “I don’t like Spanish” is not an individual circumstance (nor are ‘I don’t like math’, ‘I don’t like history’, or ‘I don’t like science’).

46

Why? The FAQ gives the definitive answer (quoted below), IMO, which was also mentioned many many times in this thread.

It’s college related. I believe what @lookingforward meant (who is free to correct me if I am wrong with my interpretation) is that the college’s “recommendations” are not set in stone. If a college recommends 4 years, it does not mean that an applicant with 3 years will be automatically rejected. As I believe I mentioned upthread, college websites will give recommendations that will apply to the vast majority of students, but not all students. There are many valid reasons why a student does not take the recommended number of years:
• The HS does not offer 4 years
• The applicant is studying a less popular language, which the school/district decides to eliminate while the applicant is still a student.
• The applicant’s HS is on a British model where fewer subjects are studied in later years.

A reason which may or may not be valid is the student has a schedule conflict because s/he made the conscious decision to double/triple up on STEM classes. A reason which is almost never valid is that the applicant does not like FL; colleges that took the time to create recommendations are really not interested if a 16/17 y/o kid likes or doesn’t like something, IMO

I will also once again suggest that users refrain from having this conversation go around in circles at the risk of having another mod shut this down. If one is looking for the definitive list of which colleges say level X = X years, it does not exist. Nobody on this thread is a college AO, and the few that actively participate on this forum will rarely speak ex cathedra. However, many of us have been through the process, and we can and do share our experiences. One is always free to accept or ignore our posts.

47

Ucbalumnus is our go-to guy for UC.

When kids say they want to avoid lang because they don’t like it, but still want a tippy top, I do roll my eyes. They miss the point.

And on CC, I’m not sure what weight “well known” carries. People are always stating things based on who knows what.

Ok, the long part, sorry.

So I went snooping. My emphasis. Some colleges don’t even tackle this question beyond the stated requirement or recommendation.

http://admissions.yale.edu/advice-selecting-high-school-courses
“Yale does not have any specific entrance requirements (for example, there is no foreign language requirement for admission to Yale). But we do look for students who have taken a balanced set of the rigorous classes available to them. Generally speaking, you should try to take courses each year in English, science, math, the social sciences, and foreign language.”

Stanford: "Our most competitive freshman applicants often have four years (grades 9-12) of English, four years of math (including calculus), four years of social studies, four years of science (including biology, chemistry and physics) and four years of a foreign language.

There is flexibility, however, in how we view an applicant’s curriculum. [There’s your “It depends.”] For example, an applicant may be competitive with just three years of a foreign language through 11th grade but also with five math courses taken in the last four years. Conversely, an applicant may be competitive taking two languages all four years and just three years of social studies." Keyword: not simply what’s recommended, but what makes a kid “competitive.” (And this refers only to the hs prep, not the rest of what they look for.)

Duke: http://admissions.duke.edu/application/overview
“Enroll in the best available and most challenging courses. We recommend four years of English and at least three years of mathematics, natural sciences, foreign language, and social studies.” (And again, for the calc question, the repeated general statement calc isn’t needed: “For students applying to the Pratt School of Engineering, we require coursework in calculus and strongly recommend physics.”)

(For additional idea how intent matters, how a review can be contextual. http://admissions.northwestern.edu/faqs/high-school-courses/ See the difference in the math expectation and, again, calc preferred for engineering.)

Note, these folks aren’t citing AP, though it is usually the most rigorous in hs that offer it. Nor are they saying as long as you get to a certain level. Or that DE classes count as double. Most transcripts don’t include middle school.

Except for schools with rigid curriculums, misc odd district requirements, or limited offerings, choices can reflect the all-important thinking skills and that willingness to stretch. This language thing is not a check box (Ok, I’ll get AP in 9th and be done.) Many kids are, as Stanford hints, ok with less than 4 years of FL. Not because there’s some formula, but because, to be competitive, in the first place, you have to have a whole lot more than just in the box thinking, a high level of challenges taken on and mastered.

48

exactly my point, besides UC, I have seen anyone pointing to the college published policy on level X = X years of FL. . I am not even looking for the LIST, but any supporting the statement of level X =X years of FL. No one said the college web site is not clear, say Lewis and Clark that was brought up clearly shows the high school course load of 2 to 3 years of FL, there is nothing unclear about it.
http://college.lclark.edu/offices/admissions/facts_and_figures/what_we_are_looking_for/

I do appreciate the sharing of experience when it was clearly stated. The benefit of an open forum or the sharing of experience is that we can find out, through the discussion process, whether the information is remotely accurate rather than just because someone says so.

The easiest way to hide behind the spread of misinformation is to close the thread.

49

^^ I meant besides UC, I have NOT seen anyone pointing to the college published policy on level x = x years of FL.

50

@skieurope thank you for confirming that the FAQ gave the “definitive” answer and it was the issue I brought up, how can one use “at most colleges” if only UC has the published policy.

No one disputes about writing to the colleges, I wrote it on #9. Again, no one disputes about colleges using holistic approach for admission.

51

I wonder why @MYOS1634 included Yale in post #48. Among colleges in @MYOS1634 's list, I already emailed Smith in July and they did not say level reached, rather than years of FL.

Again, no one argues competitiveness of the transcript is not a consideration for admission.

52

I included Yale because for this university and some others I listed, I know for a fact, not only that level reached matters, but that the default expectation is level 4 or AP, with then individual exceptions.
On college websites, ‘years’ is shorthand for ‘level reached’, same as for math. Feel free to think differently. Colleges used to say ‘units’ but because it was confusing too they switched to 'years’whoxh they assumed wasn’t confusing, but clearly is.
Anyway I leave this thread as my help isn’t needed/wanted.
I hope op got what s/he needed .

53

@MYOS1634

Your help was still needed and wanted regardless OP’s personal opinions, as the information was shared by many others.
But I agree, have agreed days ago, that it would be futile to convince the OP otherwise.

54

@MYOS1634 when Yale’s web page said that “you should try to take courses EACH YEAR”…Similarly with Lewis and Clark’s web page…both colleges were suggested by you on post #48…

My suggestion is to contact colleges but I questioned the “definite” statement of level N = N years of FL “at most colleges”…but it is quite clear that it was just an opinion as, with the exception of the UC colleges, there has been no supporting fact.

55

In general state schools are likely to have a more rigid set of requirements that you can’t opt out of. The California schools are just one example. People often ask if they can get out of the one year of fine artso, for example, the answer is no.

Private schools are going to be more flexible and look at the big picture of everything the kid did in 4 years of h.s.

56

@annamom, And you too, in my humble opinion, don’t need to repeat the same “suggestion” 100th time or until others will all agree, because it isn’t likely to happen.

57

As is stated in the Terms of Service, CC is not a debating society. What that means is that a single point doesn’t get to be argued to death, especially with the same point being made repetitively. The thread seems to be exhausted, so closing.