Former Stanford dean explains why helicopter parenting is ruining a generation of children

Parents Forum
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NYS doesn’t have a flagship. We have an excellent system of cc’s and 4-year colleges. Kids whose stats aren’t high enough for their local 4-year school can start at a cc. Once they earn their Associate’s, they have guaranteed admission to one of the 4-year schools. Maybe not their first choice, but they’ll get into at least one. High stats students who can afford the $20k price tag (or are close enough to commute) attend Stony Brook, Binghamton, or Albany.

This sounds like a terrible situation. You’re from the NE like us, aren’t you? The only state I’ve heard of nearby that’s difficult for state residents is PA, but I thought that was because of the costs. MA too, now that I think of it, seems to have hefty fees. If kids can’t get into their local flagship, where are they going? Not everyone can afford to pay for their kid to dorm.

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See https://www.suny.edu/attend/get-started/transfer-students/suny-transfer-policies/

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@cmsjmt That’s undoubtedly part of it. As a current UT student I can tell you that the difference between the top 10 percent at UT in terms of intelligence and commitment and the bottom 10% is huge. However, I think another thing that isn’t taken into account is the incredible number of people double and triple majoring at UT. At my girlfriends recent graduation it seemed that about half the students had more than one major.

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@lookingforward. I have asked myself the same question about football, lol. The only thing I got is…it’s Texas god forbid you deny a boy his football dreams. The no cut football policy might explain why the team is last in its division.

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Waaahhh.

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JustOneDad, I understand your points, but you keep on barking up the same elite school tree. As many CCer’s enjoy pointing out, a large percentage of people in America don’t care one whit about those schools. Helicopter parents are a much larger group than just the moms and dads of kids shooting for elite schools who are trying to prevent all failures and ensure every success.

One category of helicopter parents are the ones who thrive on the honor and glory their kids receive and indirectly bring to them. They’re the theater moms who sew all the costumes so the director will be indebted to them and their children will land the lead roles. They’re the football dads who run the snack shack and then insist their sons play quarterback, and the Scout parent volunteers who get the leaders to bend the badge requirements so their lazy kids can earn Eagle Scout with less work.

I contend there are also parents some would consider helicopter parents who give their children assistance with tasks the children are capable of doing on their own, but lack sufficient time to handle due to high pressure environments. On this topic, it seems that some on here are talking out of both sides of their mouths. They say kids should take the lead and follow their passions with a hands-off type of support from mom and dad. But it seems they only think that’s a good idea if those passions are relatively easy to pursue. If they cost too much time, money, sleep, or stress, then parents should just say no. Conveniently, that worked for them due to the nature of their schools and communities.

However, what is the solution if the child really, really wants to play on the high school soccer team, but in your town that goal would require years of elite club travel soccer and all that that life entails. So you tell little Justin no, that’s a crazy commitment that’s not good for our family. OK, so then little Justin decides he want to be a drummer in the high school jazz band or marching band. But then you learn that he will first have to practice, practice, practice and take hours and hours of private lessons to only possibly be better than some kids who are among the best drummers in the state or else he can’t participate at all (way too many prospective drummers) or will be relegated to just playing the triangle. Now what? And so on with almost every typical teen EC. OK, you say, Justin you will excel in community service. Oh wait, even that is crazy in your area, depending on where the student wants to volunteer. The hospital? Multi-step process with many requirements and a two year wait list because of all the eager beaver pre-med high schoolers. The public library? Same problem, because the library is safe and within walking distance of the school so it’s in high demand. Your church food bank? Same problem because every Tom, Dick and Harry needs to volunteer for be eligible for just about anything in teen society, including even graduation. In fact, I just had that conversation with a woman at my church whose D wanted to volunteer and was told they didn’t need anyone. OK, Justin, you can start your own volunteer organization at school. Nope, that’s a no go because the high school got sick of all the go-getter club and charity starters and now insists that all volunteer activities be funneled through their one student organization, which is already chock full of kids fighting over volunteer slots (you know, for NHS and all.)

Sure, if you’re lucky, your kid could decide to make origami earrings instead. But what if he really, really just wants to play soccer?

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This kind of thing occurs at all levels. The elite schools are just commonly used examples.

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Your examples do leave an opening for: and what if, in 9th, he says he really, really, really wants to go to Harvard? But that will take years of dedication, rigorous courses, good grades, challenging activities, and the resulting pressures, time commitments, and other things missed. “So you tell little Justin no, that’s a crazy commitment that’s not good for our family.” (I’d prefer the words assess and discuss, not just tell.)

Is it really that hard to find activities in your area? All those other kids are scooping them up?

I get the problem with your local public U’s and it’s clear you’re frustrated. But what changes do you want to see? Despite the large number of highly competitive kids in your area, you’d like it to be easier to get into the local colleges? Or easier to get the same top grades in the hs?

Our flagship, btw, isn’t great. It’s a cheap enough option for many, but the competitive kids aren’t interested. That forces many families here to seek other options. And there are many, between that school and the tippy tops.

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There are two thousand colleges in the US, of which at least 300 are quite respectable. Many kids find their place at directional state public universities, small public LAC’s, small private LAC’s. Why focus solely on the state flagship?

I agree with @blossom - I just don’t see the doom and gloom among high school students regarding their college prospects. Even the B student.

I’d much rather have a less stressed, well rested B student who is self confident than an overextended, sleep deprived, stressed over, achiever who barely managed the A. If your child has over reached by taking on too many AP classes and / or participates in too many EC’s, something has to give. I don’t think it should be the child’s sleep or well-being while complaining about the college application arms race. There’s only a race if you see the process as such.

Some parents here should visit the 3.0-3.3 threads. You will find many parents working together finding opportunities for the children and almost all the kids find a place by early spring in any given year. To those who ask in a slightly panicked tone “where do they go??!” and opine that they are shut out of colleges, you’re wrong. Yes, the kids may not get into their state flagship but there are other schools available. Broaden your world of colleges.

Um, yes? The mere act of saying “no” to the child over reaching on his/her activities is not helicoptering. It’s being a parent. It is not helicoptering to pull your child out of an EC due to low grades. It is not helicoptering to say, “Honey, we cannot afford the money/time to drive you 30-50 miles one way to the dive center for lessons.” Parents have to consider the impact of one child’s activities on the whole family. If the money isn’t there, I don’t think it just magically appears because your child wants it (unless you know how that works).

You go as far as you can, taking one step at a time… It’s not like everything happens all at once. Usually the child makes that decision after playing soccer for years, including being on a travel team. Hopefully no parent takes a 6 year old at his / her word at this wish.

I have seen high school students learn how to prioritize their wants with their needs. For example, a student wants to do both robotics and soccer. The parents and he discuss the issue, and decide he can only do one of the two activities because grades are dipping. So the child picks one. The solution is not to have the kid stay up until 2am, trying to cram in all the activities and maintain a suitable GPA, or worse, watch the GPA slip away with the sleep.

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There are many activities for kids, but we also have a population who is very driven to excellence. You have parents out on the tennis courts drilling their 4 year old kids at 6:30 AM on a Saturday. Therefore, gone are the old days where your child could bat the ball around occasionally for fun, show up for middle school team practice and make the tennis team. Just about everything is intense and high-commitment.

What about the community recreation leagues, you ask? Here’s how that works here. Let’s take basketball as an example. Lots of kids play sports in the early years, so court time is distributed by the town rec dept. among all the rec and travel teams. However, the Hornet Travel Basketball team’s coach believes his boys need another hour or two a week of practice, because the kids in the next town are kicking their butts (you know, that imaginary relaxed town you think I should move to.) The solution? Coach Tom signs up to be a rec coach too, and brings the Hornet starters onto his rec. team so they can get another day of practice in. In theory, this is not allowed, but of course Tom’s son can come with his dad, and then a few boys claim that Coach Tom is their only transportation and so they need to be put on the same team, and then maybe another Hornet parent is the pretend assistant coach, so of course his son gets put on the team too. Meanwhile, TheGFG’s kid signs up for rec b-ball and unluckily lands on Tom’s team. S is not a very skilled player and is a shortie, but just wants to have fun. First, he’d be lucky if any of the Hornets actually trust him enough to pass him the ball during practice, much less a game. Second, he’d have to get off the bench first. Everyone has to play in rec, it’s a town rule, but in reality no one is checking to see that it happens. So usually the travel kids play 80%, and the true rec kids play 20%. Does that sound fun for The GFG’s kid? It’s not. He doesn’t get to play very much, and is made to feel like he stinks, and he’s smart enough to know that by comparison he actually does stink.

So this leads kids and parents to decide to cave to the system and put in the often crazy time and effort to try to compete on the high level required. If a kid is smart and in honors classes (or even if not, because the quantity of work may be the same even though the level is lower) and has a heavy workload, as parent may decide to cut out pictures from the magazine for him when he has a stupid busywork collage due for English class, regardless of the fact he can and should do that for himself, because he needs to go practice basketball.

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Yes, there are lots of lower level colleges a kid can attend that are easy to get into, but they don’t meet financial need and cost $40-$50,000. That is why it’s a problem that the state schools are getting very competitive. And yes, kids who in the past would not have, are dropping down to the community college level as a result, but the ones around here are now extremely overcrowded and students are having a lot of trouble getting classes. A friend’s D needed 3 years to take 2 years of courses due to crowding.

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GFG, I do hear you on this. I know that some state schools have more demand than capacity, and many of them are experiencing reaal budget problems.

More generally I am a bit puzzled by the focus on competitive activities. Painting, writing, rock bands, hiking, Amnesty or other justice group: there are a lot of ECs that just aren’t so focused on ranking and contending for a place. I actually think elite colleges see too many second-ranked Science Olympians, chess players, or county orchestra cellists. These actiivties are fine if the child really wants them and the family can support them w/o disruption, but I keep hearing that a good summer job counts, too. My HYPS kid spent a summer as a supermarket cashier.

One of the reasons my Ds get to bed by 10 is they don’t play sports. Every August my elder would say she was going out for cross-country and start running, but it never lasted until September (I must admit a certain relief). I hear from the parents of soccer players how late the kid is up. I understand why rural towns need high school sports, but I puzzle at the rest of the scene. I understand that some kids want to play sports and that there is a college reward for playing sports (why?). Still sleep and time for reflection is important.

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Mamalion, what I was trying to show is that everything is competitive now, not just sports. That includes community service and club organizations. If you want to volunteer, you need to apply to do so, and if you don’t have the right qualifications then you will be rejected in favor of another volunteer who does. Why? Because they have surplus of volunteers! I myself recently underwent an interview process to volunteer for a community organization, and then in the end was basically rejected due to lack prior experience in that activity. In college, both my kids needed to APPLY to join clubs. It entailed filling out an application, writing a short statement, submitting a resume, and then a round or two of interviews with existing members. It was somewhat of a shock to me, but now I see the same process being instituted here on the high school level. In the old days, we just had to sign up!

I know that plenty of people never even get on the hamster wheel. But to be honest, they don’t seem to do well in either college admissions or later job searches. Let’s see, do we hire the soon to graduate college senior whose only job experience is working at Target; or do we hire the kid who has multiple organizational involvements and leadership in the same, and who has had professional internships all during college? And how did he get those internships if mom and dad are ordinary folks like me with no social clout? By gaining experience in related things while still in high school, which in itself is a process requiring the careful building of competencies over time.

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Which is it- kids being shut out of their local public colleges because their grades are too low (because the KID opted for competitive athletics in lieu of academics) or because EVEN with the solid grades and solid scores they couldn’t muster the “AND” factor which is the college arms race we see at Harvard or Stanford?

I see these situations as fundamentally different. In one instance, the kid loves soccer (or basketball or tennis). The parent needs to decide (as a grownup) whether it’s more important to foster the kids true passion, or whether to explain to the kid that finding some form of athletic activity that doesn’t impact the entire family (time, driving, eating dinner in the car, waking up at 6 am on Saturday to get extra practice time, finances, etc.) is what’s going to happen- and academics will come first.

There’s no question for MY family which of these we’d have chosen. But I recognize that other families make other decisions and I respect that.

But don’t conflate the issues. If you have a kid who WANTS the competitive soccer or basketball or whatnot- you need to make a decision. If academics suffer as a result- and if your town or city has a HS set up where your kid needs to stay up until 2 am to finish their homework AND compete in sports- you need to make a decision. And if a local state college is the right fit and best financial option for your family- then you need to help your kid find the path that will get him/her there.

But this is NOT a situation where the kid with the solid grades and solid scores is being shut out of the local state college because the Stanford/Harvard arms race has trickled down to the state U level. Which was the claim made earlier on, and again- which states? Where the heck is this intellectual Utopia where a solid student (not the Uber student, but a solid student) cannot make it into a state directional college because of a lack of superb EC’s?

Not buying the argument. And while I sympathize that living in a town which is crazy over competitive athletics is a tough grind for the parents of an athlete- imagine how much more stressful it is for your neighbors- who also pay taxes- who don’t have the slightest interest in athletics.

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I just remembered a funny example. My youngest tried to volunteer this past summer at an art camp, as the assistant to the assistant counselor. Her main job, she was told, would be to “run and get art supplies.” She applied, and went for an interview, and did not get it. I guess someone else showed they would be a better supply-carrier!

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I’m not suggesting that the only experience is working at Target, but there is a whole lot a teen can learn about working iwth the public and the nature of work and minimum wage workers. My daughter loved that summer. Not only did she learn to act like an adult, but she got to hang with all sorts of adults.

Applying to both clubs and volunteering positions is a fabulous learning experience. At HYPS, students apply all the time: freshman seminars, creative writing, summer internships, winter learning opportunities,etc. Any low-stakes application is wonderful practice for the high stake applications and grants.

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The athletics situation you describe is common - even in regions that are not as hyper-competitive. We lived it with my son. He decided to move on and discovered new passions. It can all be very frustrating. However, I now shudder to think what would have happened if he continued with athletics and never discovered his musical talent. He formed a boy band in 7th grade, and is now a self-supporting musician. To Mamalion’s point - there are things kids can do that are independent of their local community.

And it’s OK to say no to an AP class that is over the top. There should be no surprises unless a teacher of an AP course is new. It seems it’s a badge of honor for kids to get a few hours of sleep a night. I don’t understand it.

There is no doubt college admissions have become more competitive. Schools are more selective, more kids are applying to more schools, etc. But, every student in my kids’ high school who wanted to go to college got in somewhere. And we are not in a premiere district, we are not on anyone’s radar, our guidance department is not very good, and we have somewhat limited offerings, etc. I had to help my daughter find some on-line options her senior year since she ran out of courses to take. Almost everyone applying to Binghamton got in. So for all the talk about how Bing is so hard to get into, all good students were admitted. B+ students are going to Geneseo and Buffalo. B+/A- students are going to Clarkson and RIT, with FA and merit. No, they are not Virginia or Michigan. But, one Clarkson grad I know is now in a PhD program at MIT. There is not a single path.

No, you can’t just pick up an move. But, that doesn’t mean you don’t have choices.

BTW - there are websites listing volunteer opportunities. I checked, for example, Northern Virginia. I can’t believe every opportunity listed on the many websites I found are already taken or will be taken. Yes, hospital volunteers require an application process. That is true where I live as well, and they do run out of slots. There are a lot of people in need. Soup kitchens, food banks, daycare centers, Ronald McDonald House (my D’s personal favorite), Habitat for Humanity, tutoring, community gardens, office work at a community center, teaching computers to adults, literacy. There is a lot of need.

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@TheGFG Many of the typical volunteer jobs here are taken over by “required” volunteers (I must say that I do find the entire concept of required volunteering ironic); there are, however, still obscure opportunities if you contact organizations that survive off of volunteers and donations. For example, the local Little Sisters of the Poor has all the teen volunteers they need to assist with crafts and activities, but they need help in the laundry room and have volunteer hours for folding towels and linens. Even younger kids are allowed to volunteer to help fold small items. Guess most teens don’t want to say the volunteer for folding laundry. Not too glamorous. Ladies of Charity often need volunteers to sort through donations.

If you contact Catholic Charities, they might be able to put you in touch with organizations that really do need help.

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My 11th grader and I have started college visits. We spent several days in the car a few weeks ago driving to different campuses to meet with the different depts. Last week we visited the local RNP regional university. Out of all the campuses we have visited, which one so far has the best dept and greatest opportunities? The local RNP university. We were shocked, but the local dept was far more open to a student who was entering with unusual levels of accomplishment. It is by far a better fit than the higher ranked schools we have visited. (We are still looking, but it has been interesting to see the different departmental perspectives.)

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This excerpt below from the article best explains why many parents get involved with good intentions. Until the colleges change, how are parents expected to? What colleges expect now from their potential students has become ridiculous and near impossible for any teen to manage alone.

“Lythcott-Haims said many parents ask how they can unilaterally de-escalate in what feels like a college-admissions arms race. How can they relax about getting their child into Harvard if every other parent is going full speed ahead?”