If we talk about marketing materials and admissions standards, we’re recycling what’s been said. Yes, there are kids who attain those peaks without helicoptering. And they sleep at night. But there are many with some sort of tunnel vision, turning themselves into (or being turned into, by parents,) machines.
Adcoms do look for signs the whole is strong, a point CC misses. Sure, some kids slip by who aren’t as psychologically ready. But you also have to consider the high stakes at Stanford and the very real fact that it isn’t like high school, you aren’t a top of the heap senior, you’re among some mighty competitively qualified peers. It’s a different chapter.
And, the fact that colleges provide more counseling and more kids may use it, doesn’t worry me as much as kids who need it and don’t.
I agree with this this. If they really cared about this all that much, they could give higher points, for example, to kids who held down real jobs that weren’t family jobs. There are some ECs that (in my opinion, anyway) would suggest less likelihood that kids can’t deal with the real world. The fact that colleges don’t seem to do this too much suggests to me that it isn’t really as big a problem as a person with a book to sell would like to make it out to be.
What makes you think the top colleges don’t do this vetting? Ime, they do. It’s CC which tries to turn our attention to stats and founding a club or petting the kitties at the shelter.
Really interesting replies to this topic. I love the opinions on doing chores – which, IMO, is really just the ability to take care of oneself and one’s things adequately. No, it is not rocket science, and certainly people can contribute to society even if they aren’t particularly gifted in the area of taking care of themselves and their belongings. Often people who have trouble navigating the mundane details of daily existence find help in friends or companions that are better at it than they are. Or hired help is also a possibility for some, as has been mentioned.
This is really the concern, isn’t it? The mental health of all of us, and particularly our youngsters? And perhaps helicoptering isn’t the cause of this, but a reaction to it. Helicoptering, it seems to me, is a reaction to the pressure that surrounds getting into good colleges and then into good jobs which is viewed by many as the brass ring to having a good and happy life. Otherwise, why would it matter where our children goe to college or what career they end up with? Whether misused or not, the intention comes from the desire to help, not to hurt, does it not?
The questions is, where does this pressure to be high achieving or perfect at everything come from?
Does it come from colleges with impossibly high standards for admission (not impossible for all, of course, but impossible for many young people without a lot of help and guidance). Does it come from our testing culture in our pre school, elementary and high schools? From being told on forums such as this, that grades and test scores are going to make or break you in the college admissions game? And then being given the message that even if you achieve the grades and test scores, that it is not enough without some hook that makes you more fabulous than all the other academic superstars?
When kids feel like it is the end of the world to score less than some magic number on the SAT or ACT, is it any wonder that parents will try to help in what way they can?
Yes, there are some pushy parents out there, that live through their kids, and live to brag about the accomplishments of their children. There have always been some parents like that. Maybe there are more now than ever. If so, why is that?
And certainly it is convenient to blame parents for pretty much everything. But what is the solution?
I don’t think that having the colleges encourage students to hold “real jobs” is a good idea. I had a very real job in a small factory the summer after my freshman year in college. I learned that manual labor was nowhere near as ennobling as I had previously thought. I also encountered several new carcinogens. It did not seem to improve my “real world” skills in any detectable fashion.
I do think it’s very valuable to give extra consideration to students who may have needed to work at a “real job” during high school, to help their families make ends meet.
“To me, I think if selective colleges are seeing students with wonderful records unprepared to deal with Real Life, it would behoove them to look seriously at their standards for admission.”
@hunt “I agree with this this. If they really cared about this all that much, they could give higher points, for example, to kids who held down real jobs that weren’t family jobs. There are some ECs that (in my opinion, anyway) would suggest less likelihood that kids can’t deal with the real world. The fact that colleges don’t seem to do this too much suggests to me that it isn’t really as big a problem as a person with a book to sell would like to make it out to be.”
Perhaps when you are an outlier attending an Ivy, a singular focus on what you do well can be a very good thing. The most important thing is to be amazing at something. No one cares whether Tiger Woods knows how to balance a checkbook or do the dishes.
In contrast, for the majority of college students, there could be a lot of value in having a course to be sure that students have a functional understanding of things like basic finance and budgeting, organizing, shopping for a car or housing, basic household safety and maintenance, how to make a resume, and basic medical triage (should I go to the doctor for this?). Sort of a life skills course. I am surprised that more colleges don’t seem to have this.
Our kids took classes that covered this sort of thing in middle school and again in high school. I was under the impression that the state requires this for high school graduation. But, everything can be very academic until the need actually arises.
In college some students take a personal finance class for the easy A, or so my kids tell me.Very popular among pre-meds. My kids thought it was a waste of time and tuition money when they could be taking something more substantial, such as a class that could not be easily duplicated at a community college.
Career offices handled the bit on how to write a resume, dress for and behave at an interview or job fair, network, etc. Students have to take the initiative to contact the career office. And even after going through whatever the career office had to offer, neither was able to find a post-grad job through career office contacts. Still, it was good practice to learn how to apply to jobs and handle rejection. One did find a co-op through the engineering school, though.
For many kids, the barrier to finding a real job in high school is a lack of a network and lack of transportation. Quite a few who hold jobs and are not working for family members are finding these jobs through their family network.
austinmshauri – I agree with your perspective completely. Parents are the university’s clients because we pay the bills. Some schools don’t appear to recognize this and have little respect for the work parents put into getting their child/student ready to take on the challenges of college or into paying for it. As the costs of college have skyrocketed, it is increasingly likely that the students attending college have substantial parental support (both financial and otherwise). We are long past the days when students could put themselves through college by working summers and holding down a wait staff job during the school year, declaring “independence” in the process. This also means that parents are investing an increasingly large portion of their resources in the education of their children, and paying much closer attention to the outcome(s). I don’t think this should come as any surprise to deans who annually send out letters informing families of how much tuition, room/board, and fees will increase.
Some of the skills Tiger Woods lacks do bother me.
I don’t mind the bar being raised in some high schools (or for some kids) because I transferred for the last two years of hs, after a family move. The difference in expectations and peer readiness was exciting and shaped me. Plus, I have a view to some of the high performing/high level thinking kids and many are awesome- mature, grounded, and fun. In many ways, the stretchy but balanced kids are your kids’ competition for tippy tops. Not just the rigor/stats kids with a few hs titles.
It’s not just pushing a kid or encouraging that can hurt. Many of us have parents who wanted us to get ahead. IMO, it’s when perspective is lost and love can hang on performance. And then the self-love does, too. That’s different than, as so many posters show, we’re involved and just trying to guide them as best we can and enjoy our time with them.
A job is good because it implies the kid met adult expectations (show up, do the job properly, stick with it, etc.) That’s a little different angle than being in some club or even class president.
“Binghamton and Stony Brook
SAT score ranges: 1240-1380/1600 and 1190-1360/1600
GPA ranges: 91-97 and 90-96”
Your chances may be higher than these stats indicate. In the past, the overall published stats apparently did not include EOP, Advantage students and international students (even when they submitted scores) and perhaps others. That means there were a substantial number of students with low scores and grades that were not averaged into the published stats. That means, for instance, that more than 25% of the students had SAT scores lower than 1240 at Binghamton. Since the school did not note this fact when they published their information, it is hard to know if they have continued this practice. My point is that, if so, your odds of being accepted may be quite a bit higher than you might think.
“Sure, some kids slip by who aren’t as psychologically ready”
Well a lot do. And many have had accommodations, a point illegal to consider in admissions and a point not even included in the application. And it should not be by the college but should be by the student and family. Students and their parents should certainly include that knowledge in decision making about which school to attend and where-and too many don’t. I’ve known many parents of students with significant mental health (with associated learning) issues who very closely nurtured, looked out for, directed and sometimes even completed work for their child from preschool through high school. Then, when it came to applying to college, they guided their child through that process with an eye towards getting into the most competitive school they could gain admissions to-the best bumper sticker the kid could get with no consideration of the location or the achievement levels of the students at the school. Is it no wonder they send their papers home to be written…I mean “edited” or that their comfort dogs or pacifiers or blue blankies are not enough? get real!
Incidentally, I’ve known tons of students with accommodations who were thoughtful about where they attended and who did very well in college. It isn’t a matter of whether or not a student is eligible for an accommodation but it is a matter of how thoughtful they and their parents are about choosing an appropriate college. For example, for a student getting extra time, more time does not put more hours in your day. If typical kids are busting their xx and working 24-7, what will getting more time do for a student who needs twice the time to complete tasks-nothing!
I’m not including the special disability known as “SAT Disability” that has a sudden onset right before the PSATs to students with wealthy educated parents and mostly A’s. That terrible epidemic is concentrated in the wealthy suburbs of NY and a few other cities. Spontaneous recovery usually happens at graduation, unless more schooling is planned.
Maybe things have changed since the early '00s, but most international students back when I attended undergrad and some years afterwards actually had to meet higher GPA/standardized stat standards than their domestic counterparts to be admitted to the same given college…and be able to demonstrate financial wherewithal to be full-pay to boot.
One result of this was the fact the average SAT scores tended to be higher for international students than their domestic counterparts in a few released stats on dead tree stats released by some schools 15+ years ago. The ones I’ve personally known regarded their standardized scores as one of their strongest points on their undergrad app.
