Former Stanford Swimmer Convicted of Rape

I will actually respond to that:

The more time we spend trying to differentiate men from women, that women need to be “protected” and “cherished”, the more problem we will have with the reverse - see countries that still have problems with tribalism.

I have taught my children that men and women are the same, and that regardless of gender or gender identity, you treat people exactly the same.

You can’t set a group of people apart, and not expect repercussions. Yes, many men have females they care about in their lives, but they have males they care about too. I think someone hit it on the head, that it sounds like, from the father’s own words, that the apple doesn’t fall too far from the tree. Fathers and mothers should both be outraged by this crime. And men and women should be outraged by the sentence.

http://kollegekidd.com/news/rutgers-student-pleads-guilty-to-fondling-sleeping-roommate/

@rhandco small point, and I may not be remembering correctly, but I thought the mention of the Good Swedish Samaritan crying came from the police report - he had to pause when he was giving his account of what happened because he was crying. Also, I believe in the letter the survivor read in open court, she mentioned that she had never met (while conscious) the two grad students who stopped the attack.

@raclut, I’ve wondered about the parents as well, but my thoughts have gone down a different path. I am naturally optimistic – so at some point I wonder if the dad and/or Brock will admit to themselves that what Brock did ** was ** sexual assault, and issue a public statement/apology. I’m guessing Brock won’t (on the advice of counsel) even if he does have that epiphany, but what does that dad have to lose to issue a new statement?? It might get some of the heat off of him. Any psychologists want to weigh in on that thought?

Can any lawyers with criminal experience weigh in on what it might “cost” Brock at this point to admit exactly what he did and publicly apologize to the survivor?

Wouldn’t you think that a rational dad – which Brock’s dad does not appear to be – would consider some sort of public statement apologizing for being a jerk, if for no other reason that to calm down the public and possibly make it safe(r) for Brock when he gets out of jail?

Ok, agree that all living creatures deserve to be treated with respect. I also agree that this is something that is taught (or not) in the home. I was just responding to a prior post that most men have wives or daughters–in any case nearly everyone has one or two parents that can and should teach them values and respect for others, including caring for people who for whatever reason may be unable to care for themselves.

"Brock Turner was doing drugs and drinking alcohol in high school. "

Let’s not get all self-righteous and sanctimonious here. Is there anyone here whose kid never drank one sippy sip of alcohol in high school? Ever? You sure about that?

“From the fathers response does it seem he was condoning/enabling this behavior as something not out of the ordinary. I wonder if this behavior and thinking was already ingrained in his head before he went to college based on what he had seen at home”

Again, that’s a ridiculous interpretation of the letter. It was tone deaf, and the “20 mins of action” was horribly worded, but there is zero evidence that his family was all “going out tonight dear? Make sure to rape a woman, ha ha”!

It’s easier to demonize his parents as having Done Something Wrong than to say - this kid’s like a whole bunch of other kids, who make horrible, life-changing mistakes. And even our kids can make bad mistakes - let’s not get all high horse.

“Wouldn’t you think that a rational dad – which Brock’s dad does not appear to be – would consider some sort of public statement apologizing for being a jerk, if for no other reason that to calm down the public and possibly make it safe® for Brock when he gets out of jail?”

I think any PR expert would just say - shut up already and wait for it to blow over. Stay out of the news.

Dan Turner actually did clarify the “20 minutes of action” statement by contacting the Huffington post and clarifying what he meant. Not sure if he did it directly or through a spokesman.

Powerful message here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dx54t8h5Q5U

I don’t know if it so much taught as caught. One of the benefits of going through therapy is learning how much the ''do as I say and not as I do" doesn’t work. The parents, for example, who preach everyone is the same but who when they are aren’t people different than themselves stiffen up, or who claim to be color blind yet by body language and other things make it evident to the kid they don’t feel comfortable, teaches a lot. I don’t know this kid’s father, but from what he wrote, I wouldn’t be surprised to find out he is one of the alpha male types who showed by the way he dealt with women, or talked about his past ‘exploits’ or something, and the kid picked up on it. The dad’s letter reeked of privilege and entitlement, as if what his kid did was some prank that got out of hand, rather than what it was, a disgusting, cowardly action that drunk or sober, so no more regards for that woman or any woman than a sex toy, pure and simple, and that doesn’t comes easily, that lack of empathy is learned. It is true that good parents can produce what we would call a bad seed, but even in people who otherwise are good people things can be picked up, attitudes and so forth that lead to that kind of thing. My parents had friends, really funny, warm people, who I literally would trust my life or my son’s to them, who had one son who ended up a mess, drugs, died very young…something was wrong there, I don’t know what, but I have suspicions that they were much better with other people than their own kids, which is not uncommon.

As far as the article @dstark posted, I am sure there are some men who see the circumstances of this case and are reminded of what they did, guys who basically committed some form of date rape as now defined, or weren’t sure, and are made uncomfortable by it, but like @DonnaL , I don’t buy that it represents most or many men. I know a lot of guys, from when I grew up, or even as adults, that are sickened by this, and I know more than a few guys, drunk or not, if they had been the ones who caught Turner, would likely rip his arm out of his socket or worse (the irony of our legal system being Turner got 6 months for the rape, of which he may serve 3, and they likely would get a lot more than that for kicking the crap out of the scumbag). It always amazes me when people go on about the rule of law, or about ‘vigilantism’ (as in the thread on here about the guy who beat to death someone who broke into his family’s apartment and attempted to rape the wife, because he did so after the guy left the apartment), yet does it surprise them when we have a legal system that we do, that often seems to get it wrong? I am old enough to remember the early 70’s, when movies like “Death Wish” and the “Dirty Harry” movies were popular, and a lot of that came from the view back then that courts cared a lot more about those committing crimes rather than the victims. If Juror don’t want to serve under this judge, it is much the same idea, why be part of a legal system that bases itself on the notion of being judged by your peers,then have the judge make a mockery of the severity of the charges? If the jury didn’t believe the defendant had acted wrong, they could have found him not guilty, or of lesser charges but they didn’t.

And deep underneath this I think almost everyone realizes why the judge did what he did, he saw a kid not unlike himself, star athlete, student at an elite school, and couldn’t bring it upon himself to 'ruin the life of someone so valuable, a stanford man, an athlete" over what of course must have been a ‘schoolboy mistake’, because of course no one from his background, who got into Stanford, who was an elite athlete, could ever do something like this because they are a vile person, must have been “one of those things” nod nod wink wink. That is the only conclusion I can draw, from someone who used to prosecute sex crimes as the judge did, that is the only thing I can see that would blind him to the harm he was doing by giving that kid basically 3 months in jail. I have a sister in law who was an ada working those kinds of cases, and the one thing she kept emphasizing was that they really felt they had a duty to the victims to get them justice, and for someone who was once a prosecutor, who saw that dark side, to turn around and basically ignore how ugly this really was, must have taken strong motivation, and I would bet pretty good money that he didn’t want to ‘destroy’ a ‘fine young man’ from his alma mater (raises questions, too, given the judge’s background, if he should have been recused from the case).

The judge might think he is upholding the rule of law by doing what he did, showing appropriate restraint when it came to sentencing the perp, not caving to ‘mob rule’, but what he did was undermine the rule of law, he ignored what the law, what precedent with the penalty for such a crime (in the articles I have read, from across the country, prosecutors and ex prosecutors all say the kid would do jail time, ranging typically from 2-6 years depending on the jurisdiction), and they pointed out that the minimum on the crimes he committed by statute is 2 years (but judges are given leeway to give less apparently), and they were shocked the judge did what he did. I honestly don’t think much will be done to Turner, either on appeal the verdict will be upheld, or if they order a new trial, it will end up the same way, he’ll do three months in the jail and that will be it (you can get a lot more than that in some places for a DUI, even on a first offense).

@Pizzagirl
Let’s not get all self-righteous and sanctimonious here. Is there anyone here whose kid never drank one sippy sip of alcohol in high school? Ever? You sure about that?"

There is a context here you are missing. Brock Turner and his father both blamed ‘the culture of drinking’ at Stanford and among the swim team members for what he did, the kid in his letter to the judge said that he grew up in a small town (hah, small town America aint’ Mayberry RFD, if it ever was, and these days small town america, rich and poor, are often leading in things like drug abuse and so forth) and had never experienced drinking and such…people aren’t being sanctimonious, news reports are coming out every hour that this kid was doing regular drinking and drugs back in ole Mayberry, they have photos and e-mails showing the kid was far from the wide eyed innocent he proclaimed…and if so, then people are right questioning the parents and their blindness or culpability, this kid wasn’t a kid taking a sip of wine, this was a kid who in high school apparently was geting high and so forth. And sorry, I was a kid in high school, I knew the kids who were seriously drinking and doing drugs, and want to know something? Their parents knew it but put their head in the sand 90% of the time, they were in the famous river denial. It will be interesting to see what happens when some media source does an investigative piece on Brock Turner and his family, what it will turn up, Sports Illustrated might be a good source, they did a really, really great piece on another screwup, Johnny Manziel, and the story of Brock Turner smells a lot like that, from the bits and pieces we have seen.

Quite a few of the editorials talking about jail terms in and out of California used the word rape…legalistically (if that’s a word) the rape charges were dropped for Brock Turner. Each time I came across a “lawyer” editorial I wondered what that lawyer’s particular state had for rape/sexual assault definitions. He was charged with sexual assault. Not all states differentiate. But if you differentiate the degree of criminal sexual assault, then typically the min - max sentences are differentiated. Again it’s the same issue that comes up in Title IX cases…there is no much noise around the language and what constitutes rape, what constitutes assault, what consitutes criminal sexual conduct and it’s even more complex in the legal system.

@momofthreeboys:
The articles I read were talking about similar charges, which is sexual assault, not forced rape (forced rape has much higher penalties than sexual assault I would gather), so they are comparing apples to apples. I remember researching the terminology a while ago, and some states I seem to recall don’t differentiate between something like this, having sex with someone who cannot consent, and forcible rape, others do. The point in the articles I read is that the people they were quoting were prosecutors and the like, and they were doing it based on the things Turner was convicted of, not comparing it to forcible rape. People use rape as a general term, I don’t know what california law labels it, whether they call it rape or sexual assault, so the editorials may well be comparing similar crimes. BTW, one thing I read today I didn’t know was the report from the hospital, apparently Brock Turner did a number on her, the victims vagina , quoting someone in the ER who worked on her, 'was in pretty bad shape". That doesn’t sound like some poor lad who had sex with a girl who was unconscious, that sounds like someone who literally sexually assaulted her, you don’t get that kind of damage in a vagina from intercourse itself.

The vast majority of laws categorize the unwilling penetration of someone’s body as rape - whether the victim is male or female, whether the perp is male or female, whether the body part is vagina, anus or mouth, and whether the penetrating part is a penis, fingers, or some other object.

Sexual assault is more of an umbrella term, covering everything from fondling to rape. Penetration is still rape.

I wish they hadn’t dropped those specific rape charges but it is often the case that the most serious charges are dropped so the prosecution has a better chance of the lesser charges sticking. Penetration is still rape.

I’m not sanctimonious about drinking at all. I’m very realistic about it. I don’t think there is any amount of alcohol that turns a regular person into a rapist. I think a rapist is a predator, pure and simple. And they are different than the rest of the world. Most people, if they saw a passed out person, would go get help-not have sex with their inert body. Or penetrate with a foreign object. Most people, even if they were in the middle of getting intimate with someone, when they noticed that person had passed out and was unresponsive-would stop and go get help. Not have sex or penetrate them with a foreign object. There is no amount of alcohol that can make you think that is right. And the notion that the alcohol was at fault for his actions, and that the rapist was just so drunk and “horny” that he couldn’t stop, seems to be buying into the idea that this was about sex-but rape and sex aren’t the same thing at all.

@lennon:
I agree totally, the idea that the demon run was responsible is idiotic. As others and I have pointed out, Alcohol allows what is already there to come out, it doesn’t create new demons.

@pizzagirl It maybe quite common for high school kids to drink here but to say every kid does it or has tried it is wrong. It maybe hard for you to believe but some people aren’t into it.

I don’t drink period and my daughter who is almost 21 doesn’t either.
In my eyes there is nothing wrong with that. It is our personal choice not to.

I think I was actually arguing that alcohol didn’t let Brock’s demon out-he’s just a predator to begin with. I think he could have been stone sober and would still have done the same thing.

@lennon:
That could be true, too,of course, but I think we both agree that alcohol doesn’t make someone rape or do bad things a la Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, it may be Turner would have raped the girl if he was stone cold sober or the alcohol allowed the demon out, alcohol was not the cause either way.

@lennon That is the same impression I get too.
@pizzagirl In case you missed it. From this article it appears his sister knew about it.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/docs-brock-turner-lied-about-drinking-doing-drugs/ar-AAgOpS9

"The memo says on June 3, 2014 Turner’s sister asked him via text, “Did you rage last night?” To which Turner replied, “Yeah kind of. It was hard to find a place to drink. But when we finally did we could only drink for like an hour an a half.”

I have two words for you:

swim

parents

@rhandco - what does this mean???

So does “rage” mean “drink”? It sounds pretty ominous.